IMS - Going with SKF hybrid
 

EDIT: Went a completely different direction, new thread here : http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/67943-ims-2rs-freeze-plug.html

Decided to do my IMS bearing and go my own way, sort of.

bearing I will be using is:

SKF-Bearing 6204-2RSLTN9/HC5C3WT

Edit: Due to excellent research by Markus, it has been determined this bearing is not suitable. Please see rest of thread, but looks like I will use Pelican Parts bearing in kit.

it has been used with success by other porschephiles and is only $150. Will be using the original center bolt. It mainly seems to fail when the bearing fails, and by then it is too late anyway.

Edit: I have purchased the pelican parts IMS kit to get the ancillary hardware and uprated center bolt.

This SKF Bearing has a polymer cage, however, the polymer SKF uses has a 10,000 hour lifespan at 230F which equates to 350,000 miles roughly. Since I plan to change the bearing every 50-60K or so, that should be more than fine.

Edit: I am wondering if I could push this bearing closer to the 100K mark. i'm thinking that might be reasonable.

C3 allows for thermal expansion.

The one area I am thinking of diverging from the norm significantly is whether the bearing should be sealed or open. The oil in the crankcase is pre-filter. Everything that washes back to the sump can meander into the bearing if it is open to the oil. Any little flake can drift over and trash your IMS bearing. With seals on the IMS bearing you have at least some protection as only the smallest of particles could meander between the seal and the race. Greases in bearings nowadays are synthetic and much higher quality than even 10 years ago, so I am not as worried about the grease drying out as maybe I would have been previously.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

regards,

Silber

My experience so far...
 

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IMS Solution.

4,500 miles.

109 degrees.

10,900 foot mountain pass crossing.

Two people.

Trunk & Frunk filled with luggage.

Drove REAL fast. Uphill. Full throttle. Fully loaded. At high altitude. In 109 degree heat.

Zero drama.

Ya gonna cheap out on the bearing inside your engine that could leave you stuck on the side of the road at 3am, in the rain? Really?

INVEST in the IMS solution.

Just do it.

Good luck.

I am using a very very high quality bearing.

I am not worried it will fail any sooner or later than any other high quality hybrid bearing.

My question was more about the open vs closed bearing question. It seems to me closed has advantages, but I could be wrong.

regards,

Silber

SKF has no reason to lie to you. They publish their simulation models and even provide you with the cad data incl tolerance. Run the sim yourself, you'll end up with the same results as theirs. 6.5 kilonewtons static, rated 17k rpm. If really nitrite ceramic and with those data specs, me think you'll be able to move this bearing across to your next 3 vehicles bud. Sealed or not lolll

$150 is pretty nasty tough :/ Considering they didn't manufacture too many, guess that's the admission to SKF's vip

and that is some dream stuff thank you very much. Your post goes to shows how well some of us make great use of the roadster
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thanks for the input nine8six

The way I looked at it was I could get the best suitable bearing of the best manufacturer for $150, or a hybrid single row IMS kit for $700. I decided to bet my money and my engine on high end SKF hardware. I feel it is a safe bet. Others may differ.

Silber

We have had a handful of the factory center bolts fail while the bearing was still in working order. Then tend to fail adjacent to or at the under cut for the small O-ring. LN's kit uses a much stouter center bolt without the severe undercut for that reason. As you also stress the Hell out of the center bolt extracting the OEM bearing, I am not a fan of this approach. But it is your car, and your money.................

yea, not cheap. If SKF themselves can manufacture those hard materials at around $100 each, try to imagine the price that the other privateers has to pay for custom/smaller volume. Ouch lollll

That other $700 kit uses similar materials (I presume?) and if so, therefore also cheap considering the support, tools and docs all over. You can get ROI if you plan on selling the car after this sort of maintenance also. Less with an unknown bearing, if none at all.

Like other said, choice is yours. If you ask me, I've never paid more than $80 for a bearing (steel) LOL Some of them runs in a lathe spindle literally crunching (grenading?) heavy metals all day long here (12hrs/day, full time). Go Go SKF indeed, works...

Good data points. I may try to source a stronger center bolt, sounds like that may be the weak part of my plan.

Edit:

I bought the pelican parts bearing kit to get the stronger Bolt and other items.

So, all in and I am still under 350 for a hybrid bearing from a very reputable manufacturer with a stronger center bolt.

Silber

There are several ways to remove the bearing. If you pull it by the center bolt (which most brainless people do) they break for shure sooner or later.

If the bearing has failed, i would also recommend to replace everything. So an after market solution with all components will be better for shure.

And: there are a lot good after market solutions out there. Not only the one that is praised and advertised in almost every post in this forum.

And: there are a lot of bearings available. There are also smaller companies that offer bearings that are specified for much stronger applications like space traveling. So, i would recommend to do a little more research. ;) But i'm out now, because i know what's coming next. Had too much IMS discussions in this forum. ;)

Regards from Germany

Markus

I used a similar SKF bearing but went with the steel high speed version and not the ceramic.
Cost me 25 gbp against 80 gbp for the ceramic

Details? Mileage, experience? Would you go the same way again?

Thanks

Could you explain to everyone how you would extract the IMS bearing without pulling on the center bolt?

Here is one example of a procedure:

IMS Bearing Pulling Tool

this is also a good read from the same page:

Sourcing Your Own Porsche IMS Bearing

I diverge with him in that I am using a polymer cage based on its material properties being suitable for the temperatures seen in the Boxster engine.

Would I have preferred stainless or brass cage, probably. However, the polymer SKF uses absorbs lubricant, so can prevent failure in an oil starvation scenario. The material properties of PA66 glass reinforced Resin are such that the life of the cage should be longer than the life of the car, even at the temperatures seen in the Porsche engine.

Just a note: Burner did break the center bolt during his initial attempt to extract it:
http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-cayman-parts-sale-wanted/62324-wtb-ims-center-bolt-dual-row.html

He has some amusing/informative Youtube Boxster videos.

There is more to intelligent IMSB replacement than getting the best spec Bearing.
If that was the only issue, anyone who could read a Bearing Catalog would be an expert.
It may be wise to examine the upgrades offered in some of the better kits and understand why they have these different/upgraded features.
If you are just wanting a low budget replacement bearing EBay has them for $5 but ....
Or buy one of the better kits and substitute your own upgraded bearing

I think I should point out that, in my opinion, he was extremely lucky the pilot bearing tool held, as they are not designed for this type of load. We know of two cases where the center bolt failed during extraction and the owners resorted to this tool. When the fingers on this type of tool failed, we ended up with the cars to extract the bearing by other means.

As for using an off the shelf bearing, it is your car and your money. I can tell you that the hybrid ceramic design that LN uses is made exclusively for them, and cannot be sourced.

Over the years, several people have tried all sorts of replacement bearings. Some have worked, others not so much. As a shop, we have to go with what we know works, and leave the experimentation to those with the time and the nerve to assume the risk.

Tools for IMS replacement
 

There are many forum members that have purchased the (LN Engineering) tool set and will probably not use it again for years, if ever. There are several loan-with-deposit offers buried in the classified section. If you don't want to purchase, look there or post a wanted thread.

You can have a very expensive mistake trying to improvise and learn as you go. The correct procedure, with the correct tools is pretty safe.

Something like this?

https://www.amazon.com/Goplus-Bearing-Internal-Extractor-Remover/dp/B01N4UJFRH/

or this?

https://www.amazon.com/Kukko-KK21-6-Internal-Extractor/dp/B00D8VL0X4

regards,

Silber

We have used the Kukko several times, and it always did the job. LN used to actually sell them if memory serves..............

Maybe these "SKF" branded tools?
Bearing puller kits by SKF - Fast and easy bearing dismounting
Or this for under $40
http://www.ebay.com/itm/9Pc-Blind-Hole-Slide-Hammer-Bearing-Puller-Internal-Extractor-Removal-Tools-Kit-/182398733901?hash=item2a77cfce4d:g:3uYAAOSwLzdWTdE o
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/16Pc-Blind-Hole-Pilot-Bush-Bearing-Puller-Internal-Extractor-Remover-Tool-/282201863548?hash=item41b48ab57c:g:FGgAAOSwNSxVCtd 1

You're on the right path. I'd go (went) sealed to eliminate contamination from taking out the bearing. The bearing in most of the Boxsters out there costs about $6.00 retail.

You do realize that is a $700+ tool..............

In doing more research I have selected sealed as well. The grease in the bearing I have selected is one of the best greases SKF makes and will last 6,000ish hours at the temperatures this bearing will see, worst case scenario with engine at max temp and 7000 RPM continuously. (GPF 4, n*dm 329,000, temp 120c see diagram 1 at below link.) So, there is really no advantage to opening the bearing to the engine oil that I can see given the grease is good for 200k miles minimum, I/e the engine is at max temperature/max RPM its entire life. If it is more normal usage with more average temps and engine speeds, 10,000+ hours is more likely. I want to keep the grease intact as long as I possibly can, oil may wash it out a bit over the life of the bearing, but the longer it hangs in there the better off I'll be. Huge side bonus is keeping the contaminants out. No random flake of metal can trash my entire engine via an open bearing sitting in sump oil.

Grease life for capped bearings

Use that puller on an ims bearing and see what happens. :-) Remember, the ims sprocket is just press fit onto a pipe with about .250" of interface.

I am very much with 10/10ths on this one. I have just changed out the IMS on my gorgeous 2004 Boxster S which is my first Porsche. After doing the research I went for the IMS Solution. Yes expensive but in my opinion worth every penny. The IMS Solution is the only permanent solution to the problem. And I like the idea of an oil fed plain bearing, being simple, reliable and even if worn should not destroy the engine. Being cautious I also bought the tool kit and supplementary tool kit. Now I have seen comment on various forums about the high price of the tool kits, but I was blown away by all aspects of the tool kits and the IMS Solution bearing kit. The quality of every component was first class, the packaging was superb and the instructions which came with the new bearing detailed and complete. All in all completely professional and greatly appreciated. After pulling the tiptronic transaxle and then followed the IMS Solution detailed instructions step by step and to the letter. Also installed a new RMS. And all good, running like a dream and no leaks. For a bearing that when fails will most likely eat the engine I just don't see the point in taking shortcuts. But each to their own.

I'm with Bilmar72 on this. I went with the IMS Solution on a 120K mile engine. It made no economic sense. But I know the engine's complete history and, most importantly, I wanted to avoid the time and money needed to source a replacement engine and pay for installation if it ever came to that.

See Post #24 above.
Just think about what this noob( :-) called Charles is saying.
If you use an improvised puller you risk doing concealed damage that will only reveal itself later, maybe sooner, maybe much later. If you compromise the the relationship or retention of the sprocket/tube, imagine what can happen when the chains move the sprocket at a different moment/speed to the IMS tube. Not good.
Disclosure like Charles, I have an LN tool and use it even though I have Kukko and similar.But Charles has more LN tools than I do.

none of this really applies to me, as I plan on using standard tools and method with an alternate bearing.

However, I believe you can use any puller you like if you brace it against the sprocket, not the case. Slide Hammer would be a very bad solution. If you had your bolt snap, you would probably have to create a hybrid between the LN puller and a Kukko puller such that you are pushing on the sprocket.

Silber

If the extractor design pushes against the gear, the sprocket assy could be pushed deeper along the tube.Or .... Not good.
I agree with you. Just use the same tool that has worked thousands of times for this specific and unique task. Guinea pig Threads are always interesting and cn be valuable when new parts/tools/techniques are shared.
Good luck with your bearing choice.
Long ago there was a disaster Thread on this subject where an infamous Poster used a self-selected bearing against the advice of the Bearing distributor. If you search "Boca Bearing" it may come up.
Here it is. A classic , best-of-intentions goes badly wrong Rennlist gem.
All I am doing is trying to help the P.O. make a fully informed choice about the many gotchas in this subject.They have all been covered in scattered Posts here but maybe it is futile to help.
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/929113-i-bought-kk-s-car-long-story-5.html
Finding a good bearing substitute is easy catalog work.
Finding and installing one that works well is another story.

I thought this was a thread about how the OP was going to install an SKF bearing.
I guess I missed the part where he wanted tired opinions and recommendations on LN products which are actually transparent attempts at turning this into yet another needless IMSB debate thread. :confused: :rolleyes: :p

Silber - Looking forward to your install. It's always great to see owners take initiative and your install and results, good or bad, will be invaluable to the community.
Please post pictures and details as you go. :)

The IMS isn't rotating at crankshaft 7.000 rpm. The camshafts are rotating at 3.500 rpm when the crankshaft is at 7.000 rpm (4 stroke engine). ;) So because the IMS seems to have the same gearwheel diameter (didn't count the teeth, so i don't know exactly) as the cams i would say it rotates at around the same rpms as the cams and not as the same rpms as the crankshaft.

That means you have to look for an extreme high speed capable IMSB.

But it's important to take a look at the individual bearing specs.

I also would go with a sealed version.

And please remember that an engine in a car with acceleration, deceleration is not an engine on a engine stand. So if you have around max. 1g acceleration in changing directions, there is engine oil everywhere,

And if you want to reuse the center bolt, don't pull it with the cheapo "standard" tools some people like to sell for a lot of money. They are only OK if you replace the centre bolt anyway.

OK, enough IMSB talk for today. ;) Think if you do a good research you'll find enough information to get everything right.

Regards, Markus

I respect Markus's opinions, but Why not replace the center bolt? The original bolt design is flawed. During the replacement of the bearing it is simple to just put a new center bolt in (Silber sourced one easily with the Pelican kit).
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As for the bearing selection, +1 to what Particlewave said. Thanks for posting, Silber, and looking forward to seeing the results.

The one i have chosen is very high speed capable, reference speed of 17k RPM.

However, I think you may have it backwards. Since the camshaft turns at half the speed of the crank, the RPM I have to worry about is 3500 max not a high rpm Max. That will make the grease last even longer and the bearing in general last even longer.

I am thinking since I'm going with the sealed bearing, the oil splashing around in the crankcase won't make too much of a difference. That is the hope anyway. I selected sealed because that will keep the high performance grease intact the longest AND keep small particles away from the bearing. I just cannot see putting an open bearing in the sump of the engine where all of the junk ends up. If you could do it oil fed without it being exposed to sump oil, that would be good, but you can't it's sitting smack dab in the sump, imho it will get particles in it if there are any there to float in.

I'm also thinking as my engine has 115,000 miles on it, and this SKF hybrid IMS bearing I am selecting has a calculated life of 350,000 miles, even if I went with half that, 175,000 miles, that puts me out to 290,000 miles on this engine. Basically a lifetime solution. I may just let it ride and see if I can get a lifetime out of the one bearing. This is assuming I don't find any more information out about the bearing that limits its lifespan compared to what I've seen so far in the documentation.

Then again, with how much I love preventative maintenance, if I am in there for some other reason I may just replace it if it is close to the hundred thousand mile mark.

And finally, thank you to all for the encouragement. It's nice to know that I am contributing, regardless of Final result.

Regards,

Silber

Sealed bearings are great until...

Over time acids and other contaminants in the oil cause IMS bearing seals to degrade. When this happens, leaking oil causes the grease to wash out. When the grease is gone, splash oil isn't sufficient to lubricate the bearing because not enough oil gets through the seal to adequately lubricate the bearing. With too little lubrication, the bearing fails eventually.

BTW: if you don't buy what I've said, why do you think aftermarket suppliers like LN and TuneRS use unsealed bearings as their fixes to a design flaw?

Almost all reputable kits use a single seal bearing to facilitate splash lubrication.There has been a huge amount of discussion on this and few dispute its positive results.
Some diy guys removed both seals .They did not read the oil-in-the-ims-tube discussions.
The potential flaw in the 1RS IMSB proposal is filtration.That can be addressed by a filter upgrade.
But this is just one part of the total subject
The TuneRS kit has the oil line but you can choose not to fit it. If you check experience mentioned by JFP ,you;ll note some serious problems with using the supplementary oil line fed by the port on top of the camshaft cover.

Apparently according to Jake Raby, the inner seals on his bearings are leak free:

http://986forum.com/forums/472579-post119.html

I would assume with a high quality bearing the seals will be better than the OE porsche ones, but i need to do more research, perhaps combined with a freeze plug in the ims shaft to block thermal expansion and contraction the grease would remain intact.

This post does a good job explaining how oil will get sucked into the tube, though I'm not sure I agree with his solution.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/the-frugal-mechanic-meets-a-porsche-boxster/120457/page2/

Scroll about halfway down, look for a wall of text.

Silber

If you're going to continue to research this, find out first who Porsche sourced its bearing from. If you find out and compare specs, your choice may be better or not. If it/s dramatically better than Porsche's on all measures, then hopefully your choice will last at least as long or longer as the Porsche bearing does.

Keep in mind, there are lot's of folks out there whose opinions are just guesses. Porsche's and LN failure rates are well known after use of thousands of units and thousands of miles in the real world. Others are speculative. When faced with a potential $5K to $20K consequence of a failure, I'd suggest you let real world results guide your decision.

"Apparently according to Jake Raby, the inner seals on his bearings are leak free"
Just to be clear, Jake does not sell anything.Not even bearings. He is referring to specific bearings sold by LN and a few others .
The leakage into the IMS tube occurs when ppl install substitute bearings with no seals or eventually/sometimes with 2RS sealed bearings. It is all in prior posts with theories about why.
The plug in the IMS tube has similarly been discussed/dismissed for substitute IMSB with 1RS .

My mistake, i thought he was as affiliated with LN. Apologies for muddying the water.

I am actually thinking that a plug with 2RS is the best of all worlds. If you block off the air space in the tube, it cannot suck oil to wash out the grease when expanding and contracting with engine heat cycles. If you can prevent the incursion of oil, then a lifetime greased bearing makes a lot more sense.

If you have any links to discussions of plugging the IMS tube and why it would not be a good idea, I wouldlove to see them.

Regards,

Silber

Me too, just providing another view such that a member may be fully informed before making a decision. Certainly not "trying to present tired opinions and recommendations on LN products". I thought a range of opinions was the point of a forum. Having said that, whilst I have no connection with LN I am mystified as to why they cop so much criticism on the forums. They make a great product but it is priced beyond many budgets. That's fine, don't buy from them. But why bag them.

And when I see suggestions of using a slide hammer to pull these bearings, whowa!

As to bearing choice, remember Porsche themselves read a bearing catalogue and look where that got them!

Overall though I take my hat off to anyone who works on these engines, they are beautiful pieces of engineering but they do need thought and care. Good luck to all.