Anybody used the LN Roller bearing IMS bearing?
 

I tend to favor a roller bearing for this swap, has anybody here successfully used the LN Roller bearing Replacement bearing for their IM S upgrade? Any issues?

I'm just sitting at the office waiting for a call and you got me curious. I'll do some Googling for you at no charge.

I am not aware that LN produces a roller bearing replacement for the IMS. There is one that they offer on their web site as an "economical alternative to the ceramic roller bearing". But it appears that it is actually createded by RND Engines rather than LN.
LNE states: "We did develop a version that utilized a cylindrical roller bearing with thrust ring, but it never made it from testing to production for the primary reason that Porsche chose a ball bearing originally, not a roller."

There is some interesting discussion of OTHER roller bearings here:
http://986forum.com/forums/general-discussions/56810-ims-replaced-roller-bearing.html
and here:
EPS Eternal fix Cylindrical roller bearing ims with oil feed - Rennlist Discussion Forums

By my read it looks like the biggest problem with the roller bearings is dealing with thrust force. It looks like that one, sold on the LN web site, handles the load well and does not require an oil feed. Oil feed implementations may vary in success, so I like that this one does not need it. It costs the same as the ceramic ball bearing replacements.

I have no experience with it, but it looks like a good 4 year/50,000 mile choice.

I did this:
 

IMS Solution Retrofits

Just ship your car to Jake Raby at Flat 6 Innovations like I did and have him install the plain bearing, oil fed, IMS Solution. Lifetime fix.

Just do it and start enjoying life.

:cheers:

Based on what was said in this thread:
http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/61840-newbee-ims-question-2001-s-2.html
His car may not be a candidate for that without a complete engine disassembly. ...and any fix that feeds potentially contaminated oil into the bearing is also not a good idea.

Ooooooooh....
 

.....well......based upon THAT...



He is so far past screwed, he can't catch a bus BACK to being screwed.


A new IMS is not going to help that time bomb, only delay the explosion.

Thanks for the head's up.

New engine time.

Yikes.

Sorry, Dude.

:ah:

LN produced a roller bearing version of the IMS at the request of a large engine rebuilder they do business with that wanted to have something unique for their rebuilt engine's. Truth be told, the roller bearing has no real advantages over a ball bearing version, particularly the ceramic hybrid type bearing that LN is famous for.

If you want the best, go for the IMS Solution, which is the only permanent IMS retrofit on the market. A lot of independent shops now do the Solutions, and LN released a dual row version earlier this year.

That said, just be aware that any shop doing the Solution worth its salt would flunk your car in the pre install inspection due to metal in the filter and/or sump, and refuse to do the install.

Favoring one for another; a scientific reasoning should still be an influence factor in your decision (brand/makes aside). If your car never rev pass the range of an F1 car, you might as well be better with a roller long term. The ball bearing type however seems to be the trade off and best of both worlds.

Still today nobody have been able to output centrifugal force data on the shaft itself so hard (near impossible) to say which is better. If it be me I'd stick with what Porsche says ;)

Roller bearings are a type of bearing that use rolling elements to support loads and reduce friction. As opposed to ball bearings, roller bearings have barrel-shaped rolling elements instead of spherical balls. They are capable of supporting heavier loads than similarly sized ball bearings but cannot handle as high of speeds as ball bearings.

A far larger factor than RPM is the harmonics of the shaft itself; most IMS retrofits still allow, or even encourage, oil intrusion into the shaft, which can set up strange vibrations as the shaft, now partially full of oil, accelerates under load; none of which is doing the rear bearing any good.

I know, makes you really wonder if the kit got balanced in that Finland backshop before each installations lolll That should have taken care of the harmonics at best.

Was just sayin RPM, often the easiest decision benchmark when CAE data is out of reach. Old formulas. Tons of engineer calculators available online that will let anyone know how much you'll be able to rev up that little sport car during those spirit drives (roller vs balls, etc). Not a taboo thing

MicroPoly - Maximum RPM Calculator

(J - why builders want rollers? any specific reason(s) to this?)

They advertise "superior thrust control", which makes no sense because the shaft uses the IMS rear flange as a rear thrust bearing, and even the factory IMS bearing uses the center bolt to limit forward thrust.

We have pulled a lot of OEM bearings, and not once have seen evidence of excessive thrust loading.

huh? Completely lost now man. Roller bearings have nothing to do with 'thrust', I'll check again but last time I did it wasn't lolll I would have expected the use of the roller bearing to defeat any great centrifugal force/load that the shaft could have made. Interesting....

Thrust? as in gravity pull under accel? momentum (kg.m/s)? data based on what exactly? If you know. Not that I care to know, just curious

I'm kind of surprised that for someone who claims to be very knowledgeable on cars, and familiar with roller bearings, you've ignored the most important step to a retrofit which is an engine cleaning. If you have ferrous metal in your engine then a retrofit isn't going to help you. The metal will only destroy the next bearing you put in.

I'm no engineer, but in this reference I think that "thrust" is referring to motion perpendicular to the axis of rotation.
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1466887672.jpg

I would not expect a lot of force in that direction on the IMS, but a slight oscillation at high RPM over time could wear a roller style much more than a spherical ball. ...?

You are correct in your assumption about thrust.

Oh your dead right, thrust it is. Perfect illustration

Put thrust load on that roller bearing in your picture and it will immediately fail. Not after a few rotations, I mean immediately fail as "it just won't spin anymore".

hence why I was confused with JFP's thrust explanation. In fact, I'm convinced its a spelling mistake he didn't bother to correct. Or perhaps he's trying to make fun of the IMS business-goin'on thing situation. I don't know man.

If indeed that IMS shaft suddenly requires both thrust and load management then one needs a bloody angular bearing on that axis. Beside these sort of shaft design are rare as hell, they are terrible design in fact and are avoided as much as possible. Porsche?!

beat me to it. I get it now lolll haha funny, I almost bit (or maybe I did already)

carry on all

JFP covered that well in #6 earlier:"
"That said, just be aware that any shop doing the Solution worth its salt would flunk your car in the pre install inspection due to metal in the filter and/or sump, and refuse to do the install."
Yes, I do hang on his every M96 word.He is very knowledgeable and helpful.

Have you seen my Car J? Have you looked at my car. You don't Know at all. I was asking about the roller bearing, not you opinion about what you don't know. Thanks for the info about the roller bearing.
And to expand a bit on this feces with LN and their claim of never suffering a failure, which has been proven not to be true, and their 'Prequalification' as absolute dog feces. What they're doing is trying to cherry pick cars that never had a problem to begin with, so it's a huge question weather or not these cars would of ever had an issue with their bearing ever, anyway. So - Not impressed either with Stuck on Stupid comments- i know, it's the internet, or LN's magic bearing that only fixes problems that don't exist. T/Y

:ah:

When your motor grenades after a retrofit you have no one to blame but yourself.

Has he seen your motor? No. However you act like yours is so special. He's seen a million other m96s in every form of failure. As has Jake Raby. Raby has seen so many failures that he actually came up with a way to make them better. If you want to thumb your nose at that research, go ahead, it's your money. Ferrous metal in your engine is bad anyway you slice it. If you think the roller bearing will pray it away, best of luck. I'll light a candle for you tomorrow.

Man walks into LN Medical Offices, Doc, i feel fine! Dr. Elen says, see, told you so, that will be 800 bucks! LoL.. ; )

well.......
 

..........metal in the oil is never a good thing.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1466902524.jpg

In several of your posts you're asking very basic informational questions about IMS replacements that a novice would ask. In other posts you're crapping all over the people who developed the most successful IMS replacement on the market as if your an IMS expert. Can't be both - IMS novice and expert

It's interesting how volatile this subject has become. Most shops use the LN IMSB kit and have had great success. Not everyone can send their car to "Mr. Tennis elbow" (got that patting himself on his own back) Many of his "accomplishments" have come from another shop's idea's. For the longest time he touted Type IV engines as being the "only" engine. At the same time he wouldn't even say "Subaru" and now look at what he's doing, "building Subaru" engines and he says his are superior. Hell, FAT performance in Orange CA and Outfront Motorsports are premier builders, FAT for the Type IV and Type 1 and Outfront for the 4 and 6 cyl. Subaru engines. The bottom line is Jake is good but not the "legend in his own mind" that the thinks he is.
Now along with that said, I just had a LN IMSB installed on my car (double row) the car had 62,000 miles and the original double row was in good shape but I had it done just "because" It's expensive but no where near the cost of shipping a car to Georgia, paying Jakes labor and elevated parts prices. In another 6 or 7 years years when the clutch is toast, I'll have another LN IMSB kit installed and still be money ahead had I shipped my car to Raby.

Hi,

ISMB: it's a (big) business.

Another ball bearing vs. roller bearing aspect:
roller bearing: higher friction; higher inner temperature

That is why you won't find roller bearings for high rev applications.

Forces: shure there are all kinds of forces, because the IMS also transmits forces from one side to the other and it's not a static system because you accelerate and decelerate.:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...mall/pic06.jpg
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-...ate_shaft3.jpg
http://www.einmaligparts.com/assets/...on/pg_0013.jpg

Regards, Markus

In all honesty I know nothing about the shaft, the one designed by Porsche anyway, and until today have avoided opening/reading "any" thread/forums debating on that subject. My Bearing is the best-in-the-world (20 years old now!).

However when I saw "roller" bearing as the title something told me that the IMSB business was obviously going out of control. Rollers bearings aren't necessarily a synonym of "performance" (e.g. think slow locomotive drive train applications). That's possibly why this particular thread caught my attention and raised curiosity.

You are correct Markus. You have more physics involved on rotating mass than one can imagine. Kinetic energy/velocity, momentum, gravity, floating design (or not), centrifugal force (although anything spinning <8000rpm doesn't really create a whole lot of that), dynamic energy e.g. during accel & decel of the balls/rollers. Did I forgot friction and thermal expansion?! Tolerances?!

You call this "dynamic" Markus. Personally (and my m.eng professor would agree) I call this an every engineers' nightmare ;)

Although, I could be wrong, that might possibly be what the MY96 needs long term. A good old tech, fat & heavy duty roller bearing. Who knows for sure

(like I said earlier, without the CAE data and engine room test results, it's all based on luck lolll)

Who said anything about being required to ship your car to Raby? This whole topic is about a guy who claims to be an expert on these engines asking about roller bearings and not wanting any opinions but the ones he wants to hear. He has ferrous metal in his engine and thinks that some other kind of bearing is going to make him better. Clearly not the expert he purports to be. As a side Story he seems to want to act as though the LN bearing is a scam while his engine continues to disintegrate.

I think Raby charges one heck of a premium. But, that's his business and he can do it. If you've got a guy that knows how to install the bearing and charges less, good for you, feel free to share his info if he's quality. The point there is he isn't going to be putting a roller bearing in your engine because he also knows the LN bearing the best and most used one out there in this application.

Now back to SilverSSS slinging insults while that metal continues tearing his car up.

jdraupp: 3rd post, first page

LEJ, clear on that. Sorry, wasn't sure who you were referring to. I'm with you. I like the ln products and if money was no object, I'd send my car to flat 6 for a Raby monster rebuild. You don't need to do that though. There's plenty of qualified installers. Thanks for clarifying.

Took car out today, engine still didn't blow up. Did i do something wrong?

yes - you are damaging the oil filter to a point where it will need changing prematurely. Prepare to loose all of that $30 soon.

Carnage stuff, barely can look

Yeah.. .. .

if you'd spend a day or two with our favorite indy here he'd show you chunks that came out from 911, gt3, 996, 987, and the list goes on (some ferrous and non-ferrous). He sees them every weeks![FALSE]. None of these cars had their ims swapped afterward. And they are still running strong today!

Whatever chunked in yours doesn't seem to affect the running of the car. Clearly. Up to you if you want to sponsor a local shop for cleaning then by all means - pay!. Most here at the SH club couldn't care less and wait until the engine blows up man - shall it really happen engines/replacement are easy to find.

Its just a car, and they do just that; blow up eventually. In a meantime drive the thing and have fun. Red line and all bud

My IMS Solution feeds just filtered oil from my Spin On Filter adaptor directly to the IMS Solution flange. This is the cleanest oil in the engine, as it has just passed through a filter less than 1" from the oil feed outlet.

Do NOT confuse my patented (US Patent 8,992,089 B2) IMS Solution with some other "oil feed" product. It shares nothing in common with those.

Pre- Qualification procedures originated here. Thats why of the IMS Retrofits that we have carried out under this roof (over 600 to date) not a single one has failed. Assuming that an engine is healthy, or retrofitting the IMSB on an engine that is known to have debris laden oil, makes zero sense. If you compare what we actually do, to those who just install an IMSB, then you'll see where the value is. I maintain a 6 month backlog on IMS Retrofits, so we must be doing something right.

That said, the RS Roller Bearing is NOT an LN Engineering product. It is offered by RND Engines directly to SSF Auto Parts, exclusively.

RE the roller bearing, again, very strange. Personally I've never realized how much hate there was for what appears to be a little shaft. Pretty inoffensive looking shaft if I may add.

Sure Philip Vaughan would agree, if he'd be alive of course. You get the point

OP (Chris) - not sure if this all answers your question. For me I've reached the 'whatever' zone already. Thank you very much and have an amazing day!

After the theoretical debates with their lack of quantification and test data are over - there has been some field experience reported with Roller Bearing IMSB's.
To my surprise it has been positive so far. Only a few reports so far and IIRC only 10,000 miles.
Of course that little data point should be balanced against the experience with deep-groove ball bearing IMSB and the famous plain bearing alternative.
Considering the amount of work+ collateral damage from any IMSB failure, I am surprised people take any risks.

censured: none of my business really.

(wish my boxster and everyone's long and healthy imsb life)

removed that as well, wt... way too bored obviously

If you buy a car and know of its weaknesses you'll always a person who takes risks. ;)

If you install an IMSB by pulling it out of an engine and press a new one in you always have a risk, especially if you don't know what you are doing there and on all these videos it looks so damn easy. And sometimes the IMS and crankshaft bearings fail just because of the two engine half casing tolerances.

So if you don't like risks… buy another car… ;)

Regards, Markus

Actually, it is "so damned easy" if you follow the directions and use the correct tools. With the release of the Faultless tooling, it became even easier.......