11-06-2015, 08:09 AM
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#1
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WALDMEISTER
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,334
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160F Low Temperature Thermostat = higher horsepower
"... a cooler engine will have higher volumetric efficiency. Lower temperatures will also allow for more timing without detonation since the ECU is capable of changing timing based off of fuel quality and engine operating temperature. This can result in higher horsepower and better fuel economy as well..."
Theory or Reality?
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Original Owner | PORSCHE Boxster 2.7L (MY01) | Seal Gray
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11-06-2015, 08:17 AM
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: It's a kind of magic.....
Posts: 6,261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAN
"... a cooler engine will have higher volumetric efficiency. Lower temperatures will also allow for more timing without detonation since the ECU is capable of changing timing based off of fuel quality and engine operating temperature. This can result in higher horsepower and better fuel economy as well..."
Theory or Reality?
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It is real, but the gains are very small, 2-3 HP on a dyno. Bigger advantage is reducing the heat stress on the engine castings and lowing the oil temp by 25F, which is a huge advantage.
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“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein
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11-06-2015, 08:48 AM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2014
Location: S.California
Posts: 2,027
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After an expensive and unexpected engine rebuild ,I have become much more interested in protecting the engine from the many MOF's than getting more power...Yemv
I love the lower temp thermostat for that reason alone.
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11-06-2015, 09:01 AM
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: California Central Coast
Posts: 1,476
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JFP in PA
It is real, but the gains are very small, 2-3 HP on a dyno. Bigger advantage is reducing the heat stress on the engine castings and lowing the oil temp by 25F, which is a huge advantage.
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And thanks to JFP this is now why my base sports the low temp and a new S oil cooler.
Last edited by 911monty; 11-06-2015 at 09:03 AM.
Reason: add low temp
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11-06-2015, 09:17 AM
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 7,243
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It has a downside though... the vents don't produce as much heat when you need it in the middle of winter!
For this reason alone I'm glad I live in Houston. But that's the only reason.
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11-06-2015, 09:36 AM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: It's a kind of magic.....
Posts: 6,261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandallNeighbour
It has a downside though... the vents don't produce as much heat when you need it in the middle of winter!
For this reason alone I'm glad I live in Houston. But that's the only reason.
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I would not bet on that; one of the most common comments we get from daily drivers in cold weather is that the car seems to warm up more quickly, which is actually not correct but is the perception you get because warm water starts circulating earlier with the 160 F stat. Even at 0F, I get more heat than I need out of my cars.
__________________
“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein
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11-06-2015, 10:42 AM
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#7
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Engine Surgeon
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cleveland GA USA
Posts: 2,425
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The 160*F Low Temp T Stat from LN was developed in -20F conditions, in Chicago.
The real difference comes from not just when the T stat starts to open, but the temperature that it reaches a fully open position.
I have used NOTHING else in my engines since 2007. If someone requests a factory unit, I request that they take their business to someone who isn't a developer, and will do whatever they want.
__________________
Jake Raby/www.flat6innovations.com
IMS Solution/ Faultless Tool Inventor
US Patent 8,992,089 &
US Patent 9,416,697
Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
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11-16-2015, 03:52 PM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern canada
Posts: 262
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Haaaaaaa! when I did my rebuild a few years ago I used the 160 low temp thermostat from LN. It was because of all the advice I received and read from these forums and it made sense. It had nothing to do with the cold temps I live in or it could operate in, because my BOX has not seen snow nor is it ever going to see snow as long as I own it!
It is my daily driver from May through to November.
I think I just went for my last ride of the year yesterday when I did a 5 hr drive taking my daughter back to university. The car runs great. Daytime Temps are still above 0 Celsius up here in New Brunswick Canada but any day now someone is going to pull the plug and we'll be in a deep freeze.
HP - my S has all I need.
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11-18-2015, 01:12 PM
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#9
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Posts: 730
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Quote:
The temperature rating of a replacement thermostat must be the correct one for the application because of the adverse affects the wrong thermostat can have on drivability, engine performance and emissions.
The temperature rating specified by the car manufacturer is especially important in many 1981 and newer vehicles because the onboard computer monitors coolant temperature through a coolant sensor to control fuel enrichment, spark timing and operation of the EGR valve. Even on vehicles without computers, thermal vacuum switches that react to a specific coolant temperature are often used to open and close various vacuum circuits that regulate fuel enrichment, timing and EGR. If a colder thermostat is installed, the coolant may never get hot enough to trigger the appropriate control functions or to allow a computer system to go into “closed loop”. Too hot a thermostat can also interfere with the proper operation of engine controls, and increase the engine’s operating temperature to the point where it may experience detonation (spark knock).
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http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Thermostats_explained
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Kent Christensen
Albuquerque
2001 Boxster
2007 GL320 CDI, 2010 CL550
2 BMW motorcycles
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11-18-2015, 02:01 PM
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#10
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On the slippery slope
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Austin and Palm Springs
Posts: 3,793
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I put in a low temp thermostat when I changed the waterpump a little while ago.
The one thing I noticed is the water temp takes longer to reach normal, the needle in the middle of the 8.
My butt dyno say at least 25 more WHP
__________________
2004 Boxster S 6 speed - DRL relay hack, Polaris AutoTop DIY
2004 996 Targa Tip
Instructor - San Diego region
2014 Porsche Performance Driving School
2020 BMW X3, 2013 Ram 1500, 2016 Cmax, 2004 F-150 "Big Red"
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11-18-2015, 02:31 PM
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#11
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Motorist & Coffee Drinker
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 3,652
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I'm thinking that I should do this on all my Boxsters. I see there is an option to buy just the 160F insert on Pelican for about $40.
Besides the extra work, is there any reason not to just replace the insert in my original thermostats and save $100+ each over buying the full replacement product?
I like to save money, but not if it is a big compromise to the effectiveness & reliability.
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I am not an attorney, mechanic, or member of the clergy. Following any advice given in my posts is done at your own peril.
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11-18-2015, 05:43 PM
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#12
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On the slippery slope
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Austin and Palm Springs
Posts: 3,793
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You can find low temp thermostats with the housing for under $50
The thermostat without the housing is around $100
go figure.....
__________________
2004 Boxster S 6 speed - DRL relay hack, Polaris AutoTop DIY
2004 996 Targa Tip
Instructor - San Diego region
2014 Porsche Performance Driving School
2020 BMW X3, 2013 Ram 1500, 2016 Cmax, 2004 F-150 "Big Red"
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11-19-2015, 01:44 PM
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: PNW
Posts: 220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake Raby
The 160*F Low Temp T Stat from LN was developed in -20F conditions, in Chicago.
The real difference comes from not just when the T stat starts to open, but the temperature that it reaches a fully open position.
I have used NOTHING else in my engines since 2007. If someone requests a factory unit, I request that they take their business to someone who isn't a developer, and will do whatever they want.
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I have struggled to understand the lower steady-state operating temperature. How does the thermostat opening earlier (@ 160* F) actually lower the steady-state temperature, instead of just delaying it? The cooling system must have the ability to lower the temperature below 160*?
160* thermostat sounds like it has benefits, but what are the drawbacks? I'm sure Porsche didn't select 180* for their operating temp without reason.
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11-19-2015, 02:24 PM
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: It's a kind of magic.....
Posts: 6,261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter.k
I have struggled to understand the lower steady-state operating temperature. How does the thermostat opening earlier (@ 160* F) actually lower the steady-state temperature, instead of just delaying it? The cooling system must have the ability to lower the temperature below 160*?
160* thermostat sounds like it has benefits, but what are the drawbacks? I'm sure Porsche didn't select 180* for their operating temp without reason.
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Think of the function of thermostat in your car as similar to the one in your home. It functions as a throttling device which restricts water flow if the coolant is too cool, opens wide if it gets too hot. Can the engine get above 160F? Yes, in fact the "steady state" cruising temp tends to settle in in the low to mid 170F range (which is way below the normal 205-210F with the OEM stat); but if the car gets caught in traffic, it will heat up until the fans kick in; but then when you get moving again, it drops back down to the 170 range.
After years of using them in my personal cars, as well as in customer cars, I have seen no "downsides". If fact, because the coolant also cools the oil in the M96/97, the oil temps tend to run much cooler, which also shows up in UOA's were the oil tends to show slower degradation over usage time.
__________________
“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein
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11-19-2015, 02:29 PM
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#15
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still plays with cars...
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Baden, ON, Canada
Posts: 1,087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter.k
I'm sure Porsche didn't select 180* for their operating temp without reason.
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For emissions reduction purposes as a hotter running engine produces fewer NOx pollutants.
Possible, but I'm unsure; may also have something to do with their being able to claim longer oil change intervals if oil is hotter and burns off contaminants more completely !?
At least in theory, anyhow.
__________________
Six speed 2000 Boxster S
Arctic Silver on Metropol Blue | LN Dual Row IMSR | Arctic Silver console, spoiler frame & bumperettes | Crios mod | Technobrace | RoboTop module & modified convertible top relay for one-touch roof operation
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11-19-2015, 02:47 PM
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#16
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: It's a kind of magic.....
Posts: 6,261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxsterSteve
Possible, but I'm unsure; may also have something to do with their being able to claim longer oil change intervals if oil is hotter and burns off contaminants more completely !?
At least in theory, anyhow.
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Just the opposite is correct: as I noted above, years of UOA results say the lower temperature stats actually do more to help the oil live longer. The same UOA's also back up the fact that oil contamination (fuel and water) are the same with the 160F stat as they are with the 186F OEM unit.
__________________
“Anything really new is invented only in one’s youth. Later, one becomes more experienced, more famous – and more stupid.” - Albert Einstein
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11-19-2015, 02:57 PM
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#17
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still plays with cars...
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Baden, ON, Canada
Posts: 1,087
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JFP,
Appreciate the clarification, thanks for the info.
__________________
Six speed 2000 Boxster S
Arctic Silver on Metropol Blue | LN Dual Row IMSR | Arctic Silver console, spoiler frame & bumperettes | Crios mod | Technobrace | RoboTop module & modified convertible top relay for one-touch roof operation
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