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Old 02-08-2006, 10:40 AM   #1
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Follow up to RMS poll

First off, I 'd like to thank everyone that participated. At this writing i think we have 45 respondents.

So far I have detail car info from the following:
Myself
Denver Pete
Kronixspeed
MNBoxster
Creseida

That's 5 out of 45. What I'd like to do--to give this poll a little more credibility--is to get the details from the remaining 40r particpants. You can either PM me or list the info on the sticky.

I'm doing it since anyone can post a response here and cook the results which ever way they want to take it. Also, if all posters do respond, we just may glean some info as to why this is ocurring and if any models/years are more affected. Again, I'm looking for year , model, miles when rms happened, whether you followed scheduled breakin/maintenance and if you've had an engine replaced.

Thanks for your help with this.
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Old 02-08-2006, 02:02 PM   #2
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What can we infer from the fact that only 45 people responded out of over 400 views? Are only folks with problems or anxiety about RMS responding? Some, like me, may have new vehicles with no history. Ideas?
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Old 02-08-2006, 04:46 PM   #3
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What is the purpose of yet another RMS poll? We know there is an issue as does Porsche. The seal design has changed 4 times and the tool to install it a few times. And how do you factor just those variables in a poll?
http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=15&st=0&#entry24 And a poll to tell Porsche what it already knows?

For what it is worth. The most "scientific" poll I have seen over the years was done by the Porsche Club of Great Britian. They sent written survey forms in the mail to 996/986 members. No complain on the internet crap. If the form was not returned then another form was mailed to the member. Then after a while another round of forms were sent to see if the original respondents still had a problem, and to get stats from people who had joined the PCGB after the initial forms were sent out.

The results....

There is an issue on some cars. Porsche knows about it. And will treat each car on an individual basis.

Nothing new.
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Old 02-08-2006, 05:23 PM   #4
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TP.
why do think Porsche was unable to preven RMS issues from seeping into the 987? After the 1000's of hours they devoted to this and still they could not keep it from infecting the "80% completely different 987 Boxster"?
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Old 02-08-2006, 06:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Pants
What is the purpose of yet another RMS poll? The results....

There is an issue on some cars. Porsche knows about it. And will treat each car on an individual basis.

Nothing new.
At least, I'm curious. This is pretty informal and doesn't have a mission statement. A bunch of folks hanging out and inquiring; anyone have RMS? Its cool.

I've heard 20%, 25%, 30%, 100% WTF?? Curious? I've heard some people say sooner or later each car will experience premature RMS failure. Premature being the operative word. And "Individual basis" sounds comforting. Man, the Vette is looking good.
Perhaps its blown out of proportion.
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Old 02-08-2006, 07:31 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfectlap
TP.
why do think Porsche was unable to preven RMS issues from seeping into the 987? After the 1000's of hours they devoted to this and still they could not keep it from infecting the "80% completely different 987 Boxster"?
You have a big hole at the end of the crankcase, with a seal to keep the oil in. If the crank in the middle of the seal moves too much then the seal cannot do it's job and keep oil from seeping out. That is why the newest seal is the Cayenne style. That seal is like a wet noodle. The Cayenne stye sealing lip can move more than a harder material seal with a spring, unlike the prior generation seals.

Why this issue continues over to the 997/987 is the design of the M96 engine.

That is what I think.
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Old 02-08-2006, 07:59 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tool Pants
...The results....There is an issue on some cars. Porsche knows about it. And will treat each car on an individual basis...Nothing new...
TP,

I can't believe you're attitude here is so cavalier. The RMS Failure Rate in every Poll I've seen consistently hovers between 25% and 30% of all respondents (even if these polls are half right, the failure rate, especially after nearly a decade of production, is inexcusable!). This is a serious failure, not like a squeaky Trunk Lid or something. Porsche deserves NO KUDOS for redesigning the Seal 3 Times and the Tools twice because the Failure remains! A Failure rate like this would put Manufacturers of many other products out of Business.

Porsche needs to do something better than address the issue on an Individual Basis. BTW, is that speculation on your part or is there an announcement or TSB from Porsche to that effect?

So far as I am aware, the only redress available has been for Original Owners still under warranty. For many of them, and most Used car Owners, the out of pocket expense has been a couple thousand at Best and upwards of $10k-$12k Worst Case. Not to mention that this Failure is becoming widely known, depressing the potential Resale Value of the Cars.

IMHO, the True Believers, the Fanatics, are closing ranks and whispering about this issue trying to downplay it lest it stain their precious Marque. Well, I believe that it already has.

I am actually considering testing the waters to see what my Boxster would bring and if my losses aren't so great, just dumping it and getting something more reliable. I have lost a Great deal of confidence in these Cars (because of their Design Flaws) and Porsche (for it's near total lack of concern).

It would be a Fantastic Car if the reliability was there, but it just isn't. And I don't want to bear the cost of a catastrophic failure. The Parts are incredibly expensive, even if I did the work myself.

I have owned 26 Sports Cars in my Life, and only one or two turned out to be mistakes. The Boxster is just a Hare's Breath away from moving into that column...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99
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Old 02-08-2006, 09:40 PM   #8
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The portion of my post that you quoted was the response by Porsche Cars GB after members of the Porsche Club of Great Britian met with them. Porsche Cars GB is like our PCNA. PCBG is like our PCA. The members of the club met with the officials of Porsche with the survey results and that was the response from Porsche.

The quoted portion is not my response on the issue. And those poor blokes only have a 2 year warranty. Sometimes they have to pay out of their pocket for a seal replacement. And multiple seal replacements do not result in an engine replacement like in the US.

You can search on the club site under the word "survey" and read all about it. For example. http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/tm.asp?m=102495&mpage=4&key=survey&#118606 If you search on other UK boards aftermarket warranty companies would not even cover the cars, thus Porsche started to issue (for a fee) their own extended warranty. Search on boxa.net for that issue, another UK board.

Again, the site for what I consider to be the "best" survey in my almost 7 years of Boxstering is http://www.porscheclubgbforum.com/ You had to be a PCGB member to register and see the messages and you needed a PCGB membership number, which I obviously do not have since I live in the US and do not belong to their club. But they let me on anyway as a non club member. But I think now the message board is open to all.
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:35 AM   #9
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I don't believe that this will change unless someone legally forces Porsche to pay up or change the engine design.

I agree with the point above; Porsche knows about the issue and has taken the
"patch" approach rather than the expensive redesign approach.

It has been 9 years now, so lets be clear, the boys in Germany have found there "solution" and unless the marketplace or the courts tell them otherwise, they are sticking to it.

Cayeene seal anyone?

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Old 02-09-2006, 08:47 AM   #10
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I think if they had answer they would have implemented it. Certainly into the design of the new engine. But I guess that would open the door to litigation as they would have to acknowledge that a mistake was identified and that they took steps to correct it with the 987. Kind of greedy when you think about it.
A total recall isn't necessary but Porsche should definitely have made a statement like "we have so much confidence in our cars and we are making sooooo much money ($140 Million in January on the Cayenne and Cayman Alone) that we will pay for any RMS labor and parts of existing 996/986 owners if they should have a problem. Then I woke up.
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:59 AM   #11
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Porsche should step-up.

It's unthinkable that a company known for engineering can be this lame on a central and basic engineering task.

Subaru makes a couple of flat engine designs, a 4 and a 6. And, in large volume. Does anyone know if those designs have the same, or a similar problem? If they don't there's simply no excuse!


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Old 02-09-2006, 10:07 AM   #12
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I think its one of those things that happens in business where fixing the issue becomes the issue.
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Old 02-09-2006, 10:36 AM   #13
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The Sub 4 is fine, very bullet proof. Early on, they had some cam cover and valve cover leaks but these have been handled.

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Old 02-09-2006, 11:30 AM   #14
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yes that's what sway swayed a few STI owners I know away from the Mitsu EVO.
The Subaru engine is great and the EVO's got some problems.
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Old 02-09-2006, 11:39 AM   #15
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Maybe itís me, but this is the kind of thing that will make me think twice about another Porsche. Don't get me wrong my '04 Boxster S is great! It's a very refined and high quality product that I enjoy very time I turn the key. But I also paid, what some would say is, a steep price for the privilege!

Is it too much to ask for the same level of reliability as a Subrau?



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Old 02-09-2006, 12:07 PM   #16
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As a first time Porsche customer these posts have got me very concerned. I have a '97 with ridiculous low miles and now I look at the garage floor every time I go out there! Does anyone know if PCNA ever looks at this forum? Seems the implications of their marketing efforts to keep us loyal could be in jeopardy if this issue is not resolved by the manufacturer. I love the car and am now considering an extended warranty. (just in case!) I just want to get one year out of this vehicle and buy another Porsche...newer, but still a Box! You guy's got me nervous!
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Old 02-09-2006, 12:40 PM   #17
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Fiero GT? have you ever tracked it? I don't think I've ever seen this car in person.
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Old 02-09-2006, 01:06 PM   #18
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This thing is an awsome car to drive! No PS, no PB, no ABS, but it has a lateral G coefficient that will amaze! Kinda like a go-kart. The one I have has 72,00 miles on it, original in every way...near showroom. Mid engined like the Box with a diifferent kind of "growl". People who see it don't even know what it is most the time. Upkeep is a little steep as nobody has parts or even want to work on it. Body is all plastic and always looks new...no RMS issue either! I am hanging on to it as I hope it will be a "collectible" someday. If nobody objects I'll post a pic of it sometime. It's not a Boxter, but it IS fun!. Mid-engine handling is why I grabbed the Boxter, but I didn' pay 3 grand for the Box! But then again, Pontiac vs. Porsche? There is no substitute! Nuff said!
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Old 02-09-2006, 01:53 PM   #19
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This one isn't mine..same car. Mine's under wraps for the winter!
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Old 02-09-2006, 02:03 PM   #20
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Ohh, so there are a couple that did not catch fire!
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