Help needed: Boxter fails to restart after rebuild / windows no longer work
 

Yikes, the motor is in the car after a rebuild and it wont start! And the windows jumped ship too! :eek:

So here is what I've done so far:

Cranked the *&#^@_) out of it - it has hit once or twice, but nothing to write home about

Cranked with the Mass Airflow Sensor connected and disconnected

About fuel flow

There is gasoline smell from the exhaust and a bit of gasoline wetting a small bolt on the bottom of the right front catalytic converter.

Pulled the #3 plug and it was completely fouled with fuel.

About Spark

Checked for spark by grounding #3 plug while the engine was cranked and got seriously strong bright blue sparks.

All six coil pack connectors were numbered the numbers were matched to the cylinders on reinstallation. They only fit one way due to harness length. Each coil pack was returned to its original location.

Sooo, got fuel, and got spark in the right place.

The fuel has been in the tank about 3 years old, but does not have the sickly sweet smell of really old fuel. Anyone have experience with old fuel causing starting problems?

I was very careful on valve timing and used the lock down tools with the engine locked at TDC.

Curiously, windows no longer function after sitting unpowered for about 8 months - trying to put the window up there is nothing, no sound, no movement. trying to put it down I get a click from a relay in the door. The fuse is good. :ah:

Here is a video of the engine cranking over:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBJXp5yEGLg&feature=youtu.be

Any help or suggestions wouild be appreciated, especially on the age of the gas - I'm more than willling to / leaning towards swapping it with new, but if someone knows that is or is not the problem I'd like to hear that.

My best guess is the timing is off. Maybe try advancing or retarding it by 5 degrees or so and see what happens.

2003 Boxster 3.2. Are you referring to the valve timing? It was spot on though that is one thing I'm going to have to double check if the old gas thing doesn't work out.

I'm thinking I can empty the tank by pulling the rear pressure line and powering the tank pump with jumpers That serves the double purpose of emptying the high pressure side and the tank.

My bet is the 3 year old fuel. That's old...

3 year old fuel? Really.

It may be a good thing the engine hasn't fired, 3 year old fuel will varnish valve guides and seize valves in a jiffy.

Wow.

So that's a yes on the fuel being the problem?

His problems will start with that.. If that was E10 fuel its probably already killed the fuel pump. The fuel should have been drained and the tank preserved.

Definitely. Something to do with the ethanol portion of the mix that absorbs water. Many are cautious not go over 3 months on old gas.

Thanks for the information, if the fuel pump needs replacing, I'll know why. So, back to the original question to the old gas not firing, does anyone have experience with this? I'm leaning on the experience of the community to get the car fired up. any help in that vein would be appreciated.

I didn't realize the fuel was that old......

Complete fuel change out is the next step. That will elimnate one possible problem. If no joy there, what next? Any suggestions?

Fuel more than a year old is a problem.

Lacking a separate fuel pump and container bolted to the fuel rail, you can try the old method of temporarily removing the plugs and squirting (new) fuel into the cylinders and then see if the engine fires - if all OK it will run for just a second or two, but it proves things a timed right......
Because its a time constraint, maybe just squirt fuel into one bank of cylinders. It should only take 15 minutes to pull the plugs, blow in a tablespoon full of gas in each pot, install plugs and snap the coil packs back into place (without bolting them back onto the block).

The old fuel has got to go at this point as it is too much of an unknown. More than likely the light ends are gone so it won't start, especially when cold. To dump the old fuel I'm thinking of disconnecting the fuel quick disconnect at the bottom of the firewall and manually powering the fuel pump to empty the fuel tank into gas cans. Any thoughts or cautions on that?

Fuel... yeah its possible esp with as humid a Houston gets..

Although the fuel could be a problem, with it being less than 5 years old and more than 2 I kind of doubt it. but ethanol fuel in late model cars does have its issues with time. pull it out and put it in the lawn mower to test I'm sure it is probably still good for other uses.

Lately I've been resurrecting dead cars that have not been running in years. Surprisingly they all start. yea some run like crap but they all start...

oh... your video does not work.

So, the tank is empty, tomorrow 5 gallons of new premium goes into the tank. I broke the fuel system at the firewall and jumped the fuel pump relay to pump nearly 15 gallons out of the tank at a 30% duty cycle. We'll soon see if it was old gas...

updated youtube link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBJXp5yEGlg

does not want to attempt to fire at all...

Does it even sound any different when you pull the ignition, and turn the motor?

oh after you put the new fuel in but before you crank, dry your spark plugs out, and crank the motor over with the starter (with plugs out) 10 or 15 seconds to dry out the cylinders.

not to be a pessimist, but your motor cranks kind of funny :confused:

That engine has compression all over the place.. I can hear it based on the load on the starter.

Did you have the entire engine apart? Explain how you carried out cam timing.

meaning that the cranking pulses are not at a even pattern when you crank it.

Absolutely. That tells the story when you have a trained ear.

Check Cam timing and do a compression and/or leak down test.

Sounds uneven.

m

Lifters may be sticking to create this…

But I have another idea after he replies to my previous questions.

Sounds like both banks are timed the same instead of being 180 degrees opposite.

[QUOTE=Jake Raby;380855]That engine has compression all over the place.. I can hear it based on the load on the starter.

I had the engine completely torn down for an IMS shaft replacement.

I locked the engine at TDC and timed both banks using a factory built timing tool and the instructions from the 987 manual

It has the original lifters in it.

Both banks were timed the same way, meaning engine locked at TDC and timing tool used.

The picture below shows bank 1-3 timing

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1389700627.jpg

[QUOTE=Jamesp;380902] Still worth a quick double check that your still in time.

pull the oil scavenge covers and make sure the cam sprockets didn't slip.

left and right bank do get timed 180 out of phase. Been a while since
I personally checked but the cam holder gets rotated such that
when timed both camshaft sides are slightly on the outside of the case.
Double check that as it's been a couple years since I did it myself.

mike

Bummer. I have been looking forward to your engine running.
Have you left anything off or unconnected, like the tranny?
When I do my bearing I hope to be able to start the motor without the tranny installed. I was wondering if you are trying that.

Is it possible to see if the throttle body motor is working? When I start my Box it always starts with a little blip on the throttle ( from the ECU, not me).

Those windows are bugging me. Are all your grounding straps installed?

Not that you did it wrong but if I remember correctly the timing tool for one head is not used for the other when the motor is at TDC for number one.

Am I correct?

I think you are right. So do I expect bent valves at this point? Seems like I would not because the valves are opening and closing exactly opposite on one bank.

Id just make sure none of the pistons on that side of the motor is at TDC when you rotate the cams to where they are suppose to be, that way they will not touch the top of the pistons when you do rotate the cams.

Just rotate the crank about 30 degrees from TDC, put the cam where its suppose to be then rotate back to TDC and put the chain on.

then do a compression test.

Easier said than done.

So, off the top of my head here is a fix for this screw up. please review and comment:

Step:

1) Lock the engine at TDC with the 4-6 side cams in the position where they can be locked

2) Remove cam chain tensioner for the 4-6 side

3) Pull the oil scavenge pump in the engine compartment

4) Remove the cam sprocket

5) lock the cams with the cam locking tool

6) Unlock the engine and carefully rotate the crankshaft clockwise 360 while feeding the cam chain over the inlet sprocket - likely get a piece of plastic to put between the chain and inlet sprocket teeth while rotating

7) With 4-6 cams locked into position, re-install exhaust sprocket

8) remove cam locks and torque sprocket

8) tighten up tensioner

9) replace scavenge oil pump

10) replace cam plugs

So - what's missing? How can it be improved?

I'll take the easy missing piece - unlock the engine!

The timing procedure seems to go like this - Lock the engine at TDC and set the valve timing using the timing tool. Head 4-6 is shown first in the repair manual, but I dont see a difference in which head gets timed first as there is only one TDC sr=etting on the crank. Now for the part I missed - Roll the crank 360 degrees (that's half a rev of the cams) and see the other side. Now the cams are set 180 degrees out from one another. I have one set of cams out 180 degrees. BYprodriver hit it on the head.

its sucks how we sometimes just miss one simple step and it totally fubars everything. :rolleyes:

Go get a boroscope and insert it into the spark plug hole
You'll need the more expensive, smaller one to fit into the spark plug hole.

You can see if there is valve strikes in the pistons

It will typically show up as a shiny half moon arc

If it's there, you probably have bent valves.

You really don't want to risk starting with bent valves

They could stick and break off
Which obviously would not be good.

Mike

The question I have is do you bend the valves 180 out of time? Surely this has been done before.

NO, I'm thinking you just forgot to spin the engine 360 degrees after setting cam timing on 1-3 cyl bank, & prior to setting 4-6cyl bank. If that's what happened the valve to piston clearance is as designed but DME is not programmed to send spark & fuel at the appropriate time for 4-6cyl combustion stroke.