You called it! Thinking it over the valves cannot be bent as they are opening and closing at the appropriate time with respect to piston stroke, but the exhaust and intake valves have swapped places. Now its just a matter of more bolt twisting to get it right.

And I pumped out 15 gallons of gas yesterday.

The quick check is pull the cam end seals out of both heads @ cylinder 1 and 6. Then Pin on the TDC hole. Check for the heavy side of the cam at the notch. On the one set both the thicker sides should be toward the head. On the other set both the heavy side should be away from the head. Both sets the slot should allign with each other. At 0 that also means they should be in line with seam between the head and the valve cover.

That's the next step. Good thing I do this for a hobby and not for a living or I'd starve.

I could have told ya that last night… I just wanted you to ID the issue and find it yourself.

The sound of the engine on the starter is all it took for me.

Don't feel bad.. This is the mistake that Porsche dealership technicians seem to make over and over again. They call me out of the blue needing help just like some guy out of the blue, but caller ID says they are at a dealership :-)

I usually won't bail them out with a 350 dollar consultation charge :-)

It's not technically FUBAR, If I had bent the valves, then Yeah, but as is it's not F****d Up Beyond All Repair.

My feelings exactly -- Glad I have a day job!

I can wrench if I have to -- but I prefer to drive than wrench -- but I get great pride in knowing that I'm racing what I wrenched on.

Mike

Hell, I don't even have a job. Its a lifestyle.

I really wonder if the motor is a interference motor when the instructions tell you to just rotate the motor 360 with no regard to cam position? :confused:

Trust that it is a heavy interference engine.
Not rotating the engine when setting cam timing only phases both banks of cylinders simultaneously.

This creates two 3 cylinder engines and the engine would run if it had batch fire injection and a wasted spark ignition system.

That sound on the starter tells the entire story when this occurs.

It doesn't take much -- a properly set engine whose IMS Sprocket slips and rotates slightly
will take out all the valves -- so this tells you that the clearance is very tight.
(it's one of Jake's 99 millions ways these engines fail :-)

Mike

I just find it strange that the instructions would state to rotate the motor 360 with no regard to what the cams positions are???

Ah... maybe because when the cams is held in position with the cam timing tool none of the valves on that side of the head is fully open, thus no interference when the motor is rotated?

The engine is designed to accommodate this due to the positions of the VVT arrangement.

Don't over think it. Set cam timing on bank 1, remove the tools, rotate the engine 360*, lock the crank, fit the cams and timing tools and fit the tensioner or pre-tensioner tool, then tighten it all up. Remove the tools and you are done..
No need in over thinking it or worrying about anything else.

Or just wait for my book to be published, which has 3 chapters on cam timing, to include 3 and 5 chain specific, step by step procedures.

When the engine is at top dead center TDC, & the cams are properly allocated, all cam followers are on the base circle of the cams. All valves are seated.

This is why if the engine will not be started for a month or more you should put engine at TDC to unload valve springs.

Jake,
How long would be for your book to be available?

.

Thats up to the publisher. The target is late spring.

I can understand that for number one... but what about cylinder 4 when 1 is at TDC?

lets say the Firing Order is 1-6-2-4-3-5 would it not stand to reason that the number 4 is at btdc and sucking in air with full lift? maybe I'm just reading too much into it. :confused:

I think it's the gas, the gas is bad. Definitely the Gas. It's all bad.

It's all good except the gas, and the valve timimg which soon will be. I'll mix the old gas with new and burn it in an old lawnmower. The smoke should kill mosquitos. What is good is that everyone on this string is learning (sadly from my mistake, I prefer to learn from others) or teaching. I'm about halfway getting the engine out to correctly time the valves. Then I'll spin it up again, and who knows?, it might start. Then it's on to the windows - and all the grounds were tight.

Any updates?

^ +1

Been watching both of your threads intently and the suspense is killing me! :(
It's a real cliffhanger :)

Engine comes out today after work to correct the valve timing. Likely back in tomorrow for another shot.

That is the firing order but you have to take into account the cam opening & closing specs. You would have to rig up a degree wheel to determine when max lift occurs.

Engine is back out.:)

+1!!!!!!!!!!

Rolled the engine to TDC and checked the valve timing on both sides. The timing tool goes in both sides perfectly. :o

That is a problem it should only go into one side. You should have to rotate the engine one hole revolution and pin the second time before it goes into the second side. At that point it will not seat in the first side

Cool!

Fix the timing. Pull the plugs, hook up jumper cables to starter, open throttle, remove spark plugs and do a compression test.... or as mention do a leak down

If they both go in at the same TDC timing point you need to retime 1 cam set One side. It should matter which, personally I'd do bank 1. This is a quick timing guide check with you assembly manual.
1. Pull scavenger pump
2. pull the large cam end cap
3. loosen the Intake cam clutch bolt (special tool required)
4. pull the chain tensioner bolt side 1-3
5. remove valve cover and cams (only one side intake and exhaust)
6. Move the timing wheel around until you can install pin into the 60 degree mark (U6). Careful about the cam chain not loosing contact from IMS sprocket. or dropping into block
7. install the cams with the timing tool. Use the manual to make sure the cams are oriented correctly
8. install cam caps and hardware.
9. Install exhaust chain sprocket let screws loose use book for correct position to the bolts holes and slots (screw holes full CCW in slots)
10 Install top chain guide
11 Install the side 1-3 chain tensioner
12 Move chain timing to TDC (Your only moving 60 degrees)
13 Tighten the Exhaust cam sprocket screws
14 Initial torque intake cam clutch bolt (Special tool) 37 FTLB
15 Remove special tool. Final tighten intake cam bolt turn 110 degrees.
16 Remove cam position tool
17 Remove TDC pin
18 Rotate engine 360 test TDC pin bank 4-6 cam tool should align only bank 4-6.
19 Rotate engine 360 test TDC pin bank 1-3 everything should align with tool Only bank 1-3
20 finish head assembly.

You have your answer.

Before going to far check leak down as you spin it around just to make sure you didn't hit and valves. Quick test and save you some work in case you did.

It won't be in proper time but there should be a point where each cyl is fully closed.

If all is good, then retine properly

Mike

Just had the opportunity to complete retiming tonight. Rolled it and locked it several times at TDC, timing checked out perfectly both sides each time over the course of the multiple rolls. Pulled the 1-3 head to look for contact, and there was nothing there so I figure the 4-6 head is ok. Will do a leakdown anyway just to satisfy my OCD. On the plus side I've got a pretty good feel for the torque sequence and values for the head and valve cover.

leak check was 5 to 10% per cylinder, no air escaping through the valves. Fired up and the initial idle will fall off until it dies for about the first 30 seconds of running, then it cleans up, but the idle is never strong. The zinging noise I heard was the power stearing being low on pentosin. That's a break. So here is a video of it running:

00237 - YouTube

At the end you can hear the idle hunt and peck between about 750 and 950 RPM looking for a spot to roost. I noticed there is wind noise in the microphone.

On the windows, and the top. If I push the button for the top latch at the top center of the windshield, they go up. If I release it, they go down. The top has decided that it likes the service position and refuses to move at all. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Needs a handover and throttle adaptation.

Thank you Jake, I value your experience and appreciate your advice. I'm hoping the handover and throttle adaptation is something the car will figure out itself as the computer learns who it is again. I figured out the top and the windows, It's a control I have not had use for yet, the parking brake.:o

If the engine had stored fuel trim from a failing component before, a handover is required to clear it up, because the car doesn't know the engine has been repaired.

To adapt the throttle turn the key on for 1 minute, off for one minute and do that a couple of times, then fire it up and turn on every consumer you can, A/C, rear defogger, all the lights and etc and let it idle.

Check for vacuum leaks and watch the fuel trim.

Thanks for the information Jake. I've followed your advice and have run the car from cold to operating temperaure several times now. It has gone from stumbling and stalling to confident smooth running. the Idle has settled to a rock steady 800 rpm, and there was an intermittant miss, perhaps a sticky fuel injector, that seems completely resolved. The engine now idles confidently, runs smoothly, and revs freely. It's insured and gets plates tomorrow.

Beers all around!

Great post. I wish I could do this.

You certainly can provided you have the time, the place and extra $ to fund your hobby, AND can strike a deal with your *very supportive* SO (my wife got a custom kitchen out of this). Not to mention a super helpful forum like this with professionals who are confident enough to help pipsqueaks like me with "problems" they work with day in day out and never even think about!

On the topic of *very supportive* SO, to quote, "If this starter engine of yours ever blows up, get a 911 motor". I gotta love her!

It doesn't get much better then that.

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