Help needed: Boxter fails to restart after rebuild / windows no longer work

[Paul]

I assume you changed the oil, since the old oil probably has a lot of that old gas in it.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Paul

I assume you changed the oil, since the old oil probably has a lot of that old gas in it.

I had to drain the (brand new) oil as I pulled a head to insure there was no valve / piston interference. The oil did not smell like gas, and will be changed in about 500 miles just to see what it looks like along with a filter inspection. I put the same oil back in through a screen type coffee filter and there wasn't anything in the oil.

[woodsman]

Congrats! Thanks for posting the project.

[Reebuck1]

Space cowboy, Did you throw any error codes when you finally installed the motor in your car and got it running? I installed one of Jakes bearings in my 1999 996 C2 and it went right in with no problem. However, I am having the same idle issues you mentioned. I thought it might be timing just like you. When I OBDII it I got error code P-1531 Cam Adjustment Bank I... short to short and the check engine light came on. So not really sure what it is, I suspect it could be the VarioCam solenoid or the cam position sensor on Bank I. I will be checking that tomorrow.
When I start the car, it starts right up but when it slows to idle it dies. If I keep the RPM up and bring the motor up to operating temp (180). It will idle at 400 or 500R RPM but not real steady.
I saw Jakes note on your post on throttle adaptation , so I will also try his recommendation tomorrow. The other term he mentioned I was not familiar with "handover". Thanks Jacke for your insight and thanks Space Cowboy for a great post. Bob

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Reebuck1

Space cowboy, Did you throw any error codes when you finally installed the motor in your car and got it running? \

My car is throwing some codes - one was a bad precat O2 sensor so I swapped them and sure enough it popped up again in its new home so I replaced it, no issue there (Thanks to advice from this forum). Now I have two additional codes, P0171 and P0174, bank 1 and bank 2 too lean. There are several possible reasons for the two codes, most likely is a vacuum leak and I'm chasing that down.

The cam timing error after an IMS bearing install you have is in a whole different league. It makes me think the valve timing has slipped, i.e the cam chain is a tooth off. If it were me I would not run the engine anymore. I'd pin the engine at TDC and check the valve timing with a timing tool. Either it is correct and you can move on to something else or re-adjust it and you are done. Otherwise you risk valve/piston interference which is catastrophic.

[Jake Raby]

There's a ton of tricks with these cars, some are so simple but offer so much benefit. Thats why I instruct as many classes as possible and we give away a ton of "silver bullets" in each class.

If you carried out a retrofit and now have cam adjustment issues, the timing probably moved. This is why we have done everything we can to keep these components away from the DIY installer, because few are able to pre-qualify their engine and do things like check for timing deviations before the process is done. That means the engine is retrofitted and then it may have a problem in the short term, and the first thing that pops up is our component.

In the past two months we have disqualified 5 engines that came to us for an IMS Solution. Most of these were disqualified because of worn valve train components that were leading to valve timing deviations. These will set a CEL soon after our work is done and then we get the blame for the whole scenario- I avoid finger pointing contests at all costs. I've had cars driven 6 hours to me for an IMSR procedure and then found enough conclusive evidence to disqualify them for the procedure, even though they run perfectly and have no symptoms.

Every M96 is guilty until proven innocent when it comes to pre-qualification, especially 5 chain engines as they have more VVT components and are prone to wear.

If timing is only a degree of two out before an IMSR, it can "jump" enough to create cam deviations when the IMS is retrofitted, and at that point its all luck, either good, or bad.

[rp17]

[QUOTE=Jake Raby;386883]This is why we have done everything we can to keep these components away from the DIY installer, because few are able to pre-qualify their engine and do things like check for timing deviations before the process is done. That means the engine is retrofitted and then it may have a problem in the short term, and the first thing that pops up is our component.QUOTE]

There are some amazing things being done by the DIYers especially on this FORUM. Some are capable and some are not. Perhaps more threads on whats involved and what to look for etc etc threads. Giving detail info where owners have the options to take it in to have it done or to do it your self. Many make hobbies out of working on there cars. Nothing feels better than fixing your car yourself imho.

[Jake Raby]

Many make hobbies out of working on there cars. Nothing feels better than fixing your car yourself imho.

I understand that, I am first and foremost a Porsche enthusiast that has always done everything myself.

Nothing feels better than fixing your car yourself imho

And nothing feels worse than the agony of defeat. Its all great for most as long as its all unicorns and rainbows, but have an issue and its the end of the world. People often don't want to assume the negatives, but they'll certainly brag about the positives.

The issue is that certain things require equipment that the average DIY person can't afford, and can't rent. An IMSR thats done thoroughly and properly is a challenge even for a professional the first time. Thinks like a "handover" that are commonly used everyday in shops are hardly even mentioned on these forums.

To date every installation that we have had an issue with has been carried out by a DIY. It costs us tens of thousands of dollars a year to choose not to support DIY installations, but thats what we have to do to protect our product as much as possible. Its not about the money, its about maintaining and perpetuating a flawless reputation.

Our reputation is in the hands of every installer out there. If a failure occurs no one will listen to the dynamics of the failure, it just gets exacerbated on the internet and if we say "The installer did not pre-qualify the engine" or offer any other explanation, the people on these forums just call that an excuse and then its a finger pointing exercise.

Since we stopped selling the products to DIY life has been easier, we have only had one installation issue to support and things have been better all around. All the tech articles in the world won't help, because while you may be able to lead a human to knowledge, you can't make them think.

Lots of those who have jumped on the IMS band wagon will sell what they offer to anyone that has a tool box, and quite frankly that makes us happy. People will buy these things and fit them to engines that have other unknown issues or they will botch the install and lead to a component failure. That then discredits the technology employed and the company offering the product ends up a victim of natural selection. They take themselves out, because they sell anything to anyone. You have lots of options if you want to perform a DIY IMSR without using our components.

Here's your classic DIY install.. This one was performed on an engine that had ALREADY EXPERIENCED an IMSB failure. Note how destroyed the shaft is from the prior failure. Where's the common sense there?
This engine should have been torn down, as the owner now has seen first hand.

[The Radium King]

stand back! this promises to get interesting. on one side, the diyer and his quest for more information. on the other, a vendor, who sells both instruments for the diyer, and proprietary info not available to the diyer. what is what? when? was it earlier? it is it now? i can't keep track!

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by The Radium King

stand back! this promises to get interesting. on one side, the diyer and his quest for more information. on the other, a vendor, who sells both instruments for the diyer, and proprietary info not available to the diyer. what is what? when? was it earlier? it is it now? i can't keep track!

Everyone is on the same team, DIY or professional, so don't create a "Vs." situation.

We've learned that if we give people an inch they demand a mile. Honestly, all I care about is development and beating the machine at its own game.

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Everyone is on the same team, DIY or professional, so don't create a "Vs." situation.

+10 on that.

I get that Jake has to market and sell his products or his business goes broke, this and other forums are the current version of a market. I also get that he can not give away his proprietary information or again, his business goes broke. It would be great if he sent us all IMSB kits for free, or better still paid to have our cars shipped to his shop and did the work for us before shipping them back, but I'm not holding my breath. First off Jake, thanks for the DIY pic below - lets me know I made the right choice in my rebuild. Second, thanks for sticking with the forum, I've selectively used your (and others) advice on multiple occasions and I appreciate it all. I will definitely buy your book when it comes out, and If I get a chance, go to your class.

[Reebuck1]

Guys, I did not mean to start a battle with my questions. The L/N bearing is not in question here it is my install job that has created the problem. Porsche is not new to me. I have completely rebuilt a 914 (1975), 911 -2.8-(1973) and a 944S motors successfully and have owned Porsches for over 25 years.
However, the M-96 motor is new to me i.e. my difficulty. I do though disagree with Jake's comment "It's a life style"....... I think it is more of a disease! I wish I could cure it but I can't!
Back to my motor. Car originally had 70,00 miles on it (tiptronic). No signs of IMS failure. OBD scan was clean before install. Leak down and compression was good. Have pulled plugs to
verify correct cam positions and have locked the crank ( pictures to follow tomorrow) before chasing potential wiring issues tomorrow. Jake...I am certainly NOT criticizing your bearing or installation tools THEY WORKED PERFICTLY.!!!
I made the mistake and am trying to figure out what I did wrong.
It might help us all in the future if we knew what to look for before we think about a new IMS, even if we do not intend to try and install it ourselves. Thanks again everyone!

[Jamesp]

Originally Posted by Reebuck1

Guys, "It's a life style"....... I think it is more of a disease!

No, It's an addiction. To check your timing you need to use the slots milled into the end of the camshafts. You have what is called a "5 chain" M96 engine, and I have a "3 chain" M96. I think the camshaft locking tool is the same. in essence you lock the motor at TDC and check the alignment of the slots milled into the ends of the camshafts on either head. If needed you use the camshaft locking tool to lock the cams in place while you set the timing. If properly set on one side the milled slots will be properly aligned (the camshaft locking tool fits into both slots on the cams), and one will be 180 degrees off. Roll the engine 360 degrees and lock it at TDC again, Check the other set of camshafts and they should be aligned (i.e. the tool should fit into both milled slots on the camshafts on teh other side).

Pulling the plugs and to see where the piston is is not an effective way to check camshaft timimng.

Other folks, please chime in as needed to clarify.

As far as you starting a battle you didn't. There has been some "healthy tension" in the forum that I think a few beers around a campfire would solve. My sense is that has more to do with the fact that we are all restricted to posting instead of talking to each other face to face so misunderstandings are inevitable.

Happy Boxtering and if you have questions on the valve timing procedure ask the forum. You'll get answers from some very experienced professionals to help you along. I know I did.

[Jake Raby]

I get that Jake has to market and sell his products or his business goes broke, this and other forums are the current version of a market. I also get that he can not give away his proprietary information or again, his business goes broke.

Honestly, we've already moved on from the M96 as our primary objective for development. The 9a1 engines (and others) are now where the focus is, and has been for some time, as we have been developing them for 4 years now. (See Panorama Magazine December 2013 issue, pages 66-71 for just a taste)

The things that we have already developed for the M96 will continue to populate the market for years to come, as they are ready to be introduced. With our M96 engine program the Gen5 engines coupled to my R51 heads and cams will change things again in the coming months as they are released (for spring 2015 delivery) with a much different set of engine combinations than conventionally available. We'll continue to build these engines to satisfy the huge demand, but pretty much we've done all we can with the platform thats within reasonable purchase prices. In fact, we'll be able to build more engines than ever, because the focus with the M96 moves from development to application (No, this doesn't mean that prices will drop!). This means its time for years of hard work to finally pay off.

My final M96/97 development is a 10,000 RPM capable engine for my wife's Land Speed addiction. It will only be 3.5L, but I am sure it will shatter what any M96 has ever done before, and should supersede most GT3 engines. Its kind of the icing on the cake, open checkbook project, pretty much just to put those people who are trying to be our competitor in their place, and remind them that we will always be a decade ahead of them.

As far as you starting a battle you didn't. There has been some "healthy tension" in the forum that I think a few beers around a campfire would solve. My sense is that has more to do with the fact that we are all restricted to posting instead of talking to each other face to face so misunderstandings are inevitable.

Honestly, I have grown to pretty much hate forums and what they create for us. People believe that we are here to gain business, but the fact is that no one on these forums seeks out our engine services, or at least very, very few. Yes, many of you employ the technology that we have developed, but that doesn't bring business to us directly, as we become disassociated with he product once its brought to market and our part is done. We benefit from it by having these things for our engines.

We have found that we must be active members of these forums to ensure that misinformation isn't spread. Pretty soon I am going to have to check out permanently, so I can go to the next level, and if misinformation occurs, it'll just have to happen.

All of that said, if your cam timing is off now, it probably was off before the procedure and it was just enough to create an issue. People assume that their cam timing is correct before the process, when they should assume that it IS NOT and then quantify that, then address the deviation issues BEFORE the retrofit is done. The other thing that leads to timing loss after a procedure is worn timing chains.

Yes, The IMS assembly is comprised of 4 pieces that are miraculously assembled without any positive means of locking them into place, no dowels, no pins or etc are employed. IMS drives slip all the time and a couple of degrees is like 100 miles to the engine.

If I had the patience and time to sit on the phone all day and help people there's a big market for selling the things we have developed to the DIY installer, with super detailed instructions and support. My goal is to stay out of the office and away from the phone as much as possible, both of them are places where I hate to be. If I had to deal with that everyday, you'd read about the result of it in the headlines of national news.

[rp17]

Guess I started the fight. Glad we all can get along again. Just making a suggestion with my "perhaps" statement. This forum has been very helpful to the guys working on there cars with far more skill than I. Made possible by some very skillful people on this forum. Reason I read so many of these threads.

Yes there is the good and the bad for the diyers. Who you telling...I snapped a bolt on my other car last week.

Now please let me correct this, I don't demand that you share your knowledge at all. We all appreciate your advice and the others as well. And I understand you need to do whatever you need to do to keep your business open. So i do not think I'm entitled to your knowledge.

[Jake Raby]

Guys,
I've got to stop taking this stuff so seriously online. I either have to go, or seriously change the direction of my posts, their content and its clear that I simply can't be so direct.

I am surrounded by blown up engines at all times. Nothing comes here for an oil change or simple repairs, and not nearly enough engines come here for preventive measures.

Over the past several years it has rubbed off on me. Today while I was out driving my tow truck (hauling furniture of all things!) a Boxster pulled in behind me and was in the rear view mirror for a good while. I realized that all these failures have taken a toll on me when I had the thought cross my mind of "Should I just go ahead and stop in the middle of the road, and load that car on the truck before I see it due to a failure!". Failures and solving them for years have obviously taken their toll, because its literally all I think about.

When the car passed me I recognized the driver, and yes, I sold her the car with a bunch of upgrades about 5 years ago, but sadly she has really allowed it to really go downhill on the exterior.

After the past few days I have pretty much decided not to publish the failure chapter of my book, and not to post anything further about failures. I'll ask you guys not to ask me the questions about failures, and I'll need your help to keep this all positive.

In person things are a lot different than what they are here online and while I can still be direct in my classes, its not content that can be shared via text without being overly direct. I need to do more of my hands on classes, I really enjoy hosting them.

I don't mean to bust on DIY guys, but again dealing with their complications took their toll on me and things have been so much better since we stopped selling products direct. I'd love to figure out a way to support the DIy installs and provide parts without it dragging us down. Thats a monumental challenge that more than likely can't be achieved.

Thanks, guys.

[Reebuck1]

Space cowboy, If you would like me to start a new thread with this just let me know and I will be happy to do it. You seem to have a group that is interested in this subject so I thought I could add more issues and maybe help some eliminate the mistakes I may have made along the way.
Let me start with the fact that I bought the L/N bought bearing because I believe that it was the most engineered, researched and tested solution in the market place today. I STILL FEEL THAT WAY! An issue Porsche should have discover at initial design.
My problems as with many DYI folks is we start with enough knowledge to be dangerous but not enough to be knowledgeable. Had the book Jake mentioned been out, I would have purchased it and avoided some of my pain. Nothing beats hands on experience. The thing most of us DYI Folks are sourly miss. For most of the DYI guys I know this process of gaining experience is like therapy to us and we love it. Jake may even have started that way himself. That's why we love and respect your work so much and what all you have done over the years in your writings to help educate us DYI folks. We try and repay you some what by buying products you have designed. I know that does not keep you in business but it is our small way to say thank you. DON"T THINK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE HAS NOT BEEN VERY MUCH APPRECIATED !! IT HAS !!

My saga begins.
1999 996 C2….five chain 3.4 engine (auto trans). With 70,000 miles

Pulled engine and trans. from car. Separated transmission from engine.

Rotated engine to what I thought was TDC.

Pulled cam plug on Bank 1 exhaust exposing cam slot. Verified vertical position of bank 1 exhaust cam with casing split. Inserted exhaust cam locking device for 5 chain engine. Failed to look at Intake cam slot for alignment.

Pulled plug on Bank2 exhaust cam and verified vertical position of exhaust cam slot with case split.

Removed the chain tensioner for cylinders 1-3 only.

This is a picture of the IMS cover that started the process: Looks like maybe some slight oil seepage?

(Can't get pictures to up load...will do it tonight)


Removed bearing with LN bearing puller.

Original bearing removed: Checked bearing and could feel no play in shaft. Removed seal and could see little race scalding no ball pitting. When seal was removed oil was found in bearing BUT no grease.

Installed bearing per instruction. Bearing and LN insert tool were kept in freezer over night, went in and seated with minimal tapping by rubber dead blow hammer. Circlip installed and seated. New L/N IMS cover and three Torx bolts installed and torqued with Curil_T around bolt heads. Center bolt nut and o-ring were installed and torqued with Curil T around bolt head.

Reinstalled chain tensioner for bank 1

Attempted to rotate engine 360 degrees to check bank 2. Never got there. Engine would not turn 360 degrees. Realized I must not have been at TDC for bank 1. Rotated engine counter clock wise back to original start position. Then continued to go counter clock wise for another 360 degrees. Now believed I was at TDC for bank 1. Locked crank and Bank 1 exhaust cam and removed chain tensioner for bank 1. Pushed chain up with finger two times then reinstalled the chain tensioner for bank1.

Rotated engine clock wise for 360 and check Bank 2 exhaust cam slot for alignment. Failed to look at bank 2 intake cam alignment.

Installed torque converter to engine crank. Slid transmission and engine together. Heard pop but assumed it was splines for trans and torque converter aligning. Rotated engine
All seemed well.

Installed engine and trans in car. Started car and idle problem showed up. Checked for vacuum leaks and found and repaired one. Scanned engine and got P-1531 error code.

Next entry will show engine in car with cranked locked at TDC for bank1 with can slots showing so we can guess if alignment is correct.

[Jake Raby]

I was just in Georgetown last month.. I could have stopped by :-)

It sound alike the timing was already somewhat out and that the issue occurred when the engine was attempted to be rotated.

You'll have to re-time. I'd pull the green plugs and see how far out you are on both sides

[Jamesp]

First, I have to say the for me, getting it wrong and then getting it right is part of the DIY fun. Those lessons stick, at least with me. Nothing like experience as a teacher.

Post 69 in this string from Jsceash (thanks Jsceash!) has a good blow by blow to check the timing. Another string is a good idea as this one wanders all over the place.

The end point you are looking for is:

With your engine locked at TDC the cam timing tool will go into both milled slots in only a single set camshafts (bank 1 or 2 ) at the same time. Roll the 360 degrees and lock it at TDC again. Now the camshaft tool will fit the camshaft slots on the opposite bank.

Things I found helpful to know:

Which hole is TDC in the crank pulley
Check the cams milled slot alignment with the tensioners in the engine
Only roll the engine in the direction it runs in (clockwise)
Use the crank pulley bolt to counter torque torquing operations
The cams will self seek the TDC position as the cams are all sitting on their cam circles at this point - this is important because if you don't have the engine at TDC, due to valve spring forces the cams/ valves will try to get there with or without crankshaft rotation.

How to break things:

Torquing with the crankshaft or the camshafts locked with their locking tools. These are positioning aids, not locks for torquing. The exception is first pass low torque on the exhaust camshaft sprocket

Taking the valve covers off without the proper tools to hold the camshafts or with the engine not at TDC

Getting the valve timing wrong - see the first sentence in this post for that.


If I were tackling this, I'd check the valve timing with the engine in the car, and if bank one was off, I would determine which way the chain needed to move (this is the chain by the IMS bearing) and see if it could be moved one link in the right direction. You may be designing a tool to do this. Necessity is the mother of invention. I have not looked closely at doing this but if that is where it slipped, then maybe it can be slipped back.

If that is a no go you are in for full up valve timing by removing the valve cover and setting the cam timing. Personally I would seriously consider removing the engine at this point just for access, but I have the tools and room to do this. If I did not I'd have to reconsider.

I'd appreciate other folks chiming in with suggestions or corrections, after all, it's what we do here.

[Reebuck1]

Here are some pictures I did not get in last nights post

This started it all. Original IMS

Car has an Auto trans. so I am guessing this bearing cover is seeing some slight leakage and not clutch dust.

This is the original bearing I removed.




This shows engine at Bank 1 TDC with crank lock in.


Engine is presently in car so some of the pictures can not be taken "head on". But bank1 and Bank2 exhaust cam slots line up perfectly with the split between cam cover and main case. They seem properly positioned to me. I've been wrong before!

Bank 1 green plug removed shows Bank1 Exhaust cam position.



This picture show bank1 intake cam notch facing out board (away from the motor)
red pen pointing to notch. Note that the notch is slightly pointing UP from a dead level position. Is that a correct position?


The error code from the car at start up was P-1531 and referenced Bank1. But to me everything in Bank1 looked close. What is the general thinking?

I will send another post with more pictures so I do not exceed limits for this post.