Urgent alignment problem
 

HELP, I've just installed the ROW M030 suspension kit in my 2001 S (was M030) and now have just over 1" of toe-in with the adjusters set for max toe-out!!! RR camber's at -2 for now and the rear ride height should be lower by 1". What gives???:(

An alignment is needed after a spring install. I am not very familiar with alignment, but did the ride height not go down when installed? Keep in mind it can take a couple hundred miles for the springs to "settle".

As for ride height- When you installed, did you make sure the bolts were all center in the white plastic ring attacked to the top of the strut?

http://gwl.rmsolo.org/hacks/suspensi...s/PC050029.jpg

And is possible the bottom spring did not reach the end of the curve on the strut? You have to twist the strut to get it into the hub, and it can dislodge the spring and make it off centered. I had to take out the strut, recompress the spring until I could get it to move, and moved the end coil to the twist of the strut.

Hi Kenny, -- yes to the aligning with the bolt heads and to the spring perch- I too had to remove and recompress but it was because I had the upper spring perch misaligned with the cup in the car body.

Before I took the car off the jack stands, I ran the toe eccentrics through their travel and could get , what looked like, massive toe-in or, toe- out- this was at full-droop, mind you. I'm going to jack the rear up and look these two sets of eccentrics over. What have I reversed?????:chicken:

Did you drive it around the block to settle the suspension after having it jacked to work on it ?

yes, I've driven it for 4 days now- it looks like it's 'settled'.

you drove it with 1inch toe in?? holy cow batman!!

Please shoot a pic of the adjuster on the RR.

How much camber in the rear? specifically RR?

I laugh every time I see someone using a spring compressor.. LOL unless you weigh 150#'s.. there is NO need for one. Not even for safeties sake. Removing them to install aftermarket springs? Pry the bottom out of the spring perch and rotate the spring (think of unscrewing a bolt) down the strut. Pull the strut out, remove the upper mount and thread it back up or continue down. Takes 5min per shock to get the spring off the perch while the shocks are STILL on the car :)

Install? I believe the stock spring rates were in the 118lb range for the front and 168 in the rear. If you weigh under 150#'s I could see how installing them *might* be difficult. I push down with one hand on the upper mount and thread the nut on with the other :)

Hi Brad, I drove it- cautiously, for 3 days incl an amazing trip up and down MT. Baker in NW corner of Washington state. I thought I had a ton of toe-out as I had REAR bump-steer! Very unsettling. It was at -1.8 camber on RR and similar on LR. Today I moved both camber eccentrics to the opposite extreme (pulling the bottom in) dropped it, tightened, and used a string to compare the front side to back side of the rear tires. It looks like I've got about .2" of toe-out now and about -1 camber on both sides. On a brief drive it felt good- no more bump-steer at all. Tommorow I'll get it aligned again. Is it normal for the camber travel to take away toe-travel on these cars? Oh and thanks for the tip on spring removal- if only I new that a few months ago!

PS. You previously said in an other post about alignments that you knew a way to remove all of the slop inherent in stock suspensions without replacing a single part --Will you elaborate ?? I can't figure it out!

thanks

Call me tomorrow:

714-987-2981

Take notes while I speak, you'll understand when I tell you :)

I got sucked back into SCCA AutoX.. where you have to be VERY creative with the rules :)

I'm lucky to have the fastest Boxster/Cayman guy in the country as a customer :) (proven on Speed channel in "King of the Curve")

FYI:

Strut based suspensions are BAD.. when it comes to toe gain in bump. Especially on car with rubber bushings everywhere :barf:

update: had the alignment checked- bad news- RR cam. -2.1, -2.2, RR toe .24 total toe -IN! It just won't come in enough. I want half that cam and 1/32 toe- in. What's preventing it from getting there? Could it be that the strut hat is indexed incorrectly, say by one bolt spacing? Everything seemed to line up perfectly during assembly. Nothing appears bent.:confused:

By eye, how far off are the camber eccentrics from side to side?

Count the graduation marks and make a common reference point from side to side.

If the camber marks are way different side to side.. something is tweaked/bent.

The *only* time I have an issue with toe? is when we go to low on a car that I'm not allowed to run double adjustable race style toe links :(

Remember: camber effects toe. Too much camber? You'll never get the toe back to zero!!

Also :)

SHOOT and POST pics.. I can't be your eyes if I cant see what you see!!

Use brake clean and an old tooth brush to clean all the adjusters (with the marks on them)

hi Brad- The adjusters are the same on either side- I moved them there. Also, we even loosened the top L and retightened while pulling it outward - no change to the numbers. Is -2 cam a big deal on these cars, and the toe problems an expected outcome at -2 CAM?
I'll attach pics in a bit
PS. my car should be and looks like, it's only 1" lower at RR- I'll measure tonight.

I have a car right now at -2.2 and I could barely get it back to zero toe!!

If the cam adjusters are the same side to side...

this one will be tough to figure out,

it means the upright is not bent, the shock is not bent, the upper mounts are fine..

yea like I said, everything lines up great so where's the problem? I don't know what the alignment was before I pulled it apart but I know it tracked perfect and was completely stable in all situations/ speeds. Not now, not yet, it's still tramlining in the rear. I'm going to measure the throw of the eccentrics to confirm they're the same in case I've switched them. The eccentrics and the top mount are the only variables, right?

I have seen bent uprights (car involved in crash with DAPO) and bent struts, but it shows up in camber adjustment at the adjuster.

I have seen bent rear toe links.. I have even bent some!!

Are you stringing the car?

can you share the axle center line numbers? The strings side to side number?

I wonder if your box is not square around the car?

I'm on my third alignment shop:). This one has a rack with a lift on it and he seems quite knowledgeable but hasn't any direct Boxster experience.
I just remembered that the three mounting bolts in the strut cap are spaced so that incorrect placement in the car is prevented. Right?
The alignment is out the same way and to the same degree, on both sides -what does that say?
:confused::confused::confused:

It means it's too low to achieve zero toe..

and yes, the bolt holes wont' allow you to install them incorrectly..

The simple solution?

Buy the double adjustable toe links. Pricey, but cheaper/easier than replacing the springs (again)

Porsche Rear Toe Control Arm Link, 996, 997, 986 & 987

http://www.tarett.com/images/996TLNK.jpg

I know how to do it without the above *trick* parts, but I don't have any pieces made right now to build you a set :(

Because of the SCCA "stock" class rules, I cant run the above *trick* pieces in some of my cars, so we had to come up with *something* that something works in this case/for you.

what if I slotted the upper mount holes and got to -1 CAM???
Geez all I did was move the ROW M030 strut down .625" in the hub carrier...that's easy to reverse...how much can you lower these before needing adjustable tie-rods Brad?

Maybe I could have some threaded spacers made for the cylindrical part??

Just move them back up.. and don't fool with mother nature :)

I push the rubber bushing out and install an offset mounting hole (made from alum) in the tow link (at the inside mounting point)

and FYI

NEXT time... TELL US/ME that you moved the strut down!!

I could have ended this thread 10posts ago!!! :mad:

You ran out of adjustment on the toe link do to the car being too low. MO30 by itself does not accomplish this!!

sorry about that. I appreciate your help Brad. Total lowering should (!-going to MEASURE tonight) only be 1"- I never dreamed I'd cause so much hassle!

NICE!hmmmn

I appreciate your attempt :) You had the right idea, just didn't have the rest of the parts to pull it off!!

I have run shorter shocks, and moved them up :)

I have also run a specific Porsche upright that moves the wheel bearing up 2inches in the upright, but does not change the suspension geometry.

You just have to know what to buy :)

I measured the ride height- FR is lower by 1" and RR is lower by .5"!! I was expecting an additional .5" lowering FR and RR...The FR I can live with but why is the suspension so out of spec after .5"lowering? I'm not totally susprised that the rear isn't as low as I expected since I bought the Tip set (my car is a 6-speed)as it was $250 cheaper. I thought hey I'll get a little higher spring rate (assumption) and more neutral handling--perfect! Maybe the rate's the same and the coil length is greater, hence less lowering???That's fine too but why's it so out of spec??? Dammit, new OEM parts and still more probs.

I also have the tip M030 kit on my manual S. Its a 'normal' kit for me but ROW for you guys. My front was lowered by a mere 6mm and the rear was actually raised by 5mm. Original suspension had done 70k miles but was rig tested and still good.

100's of time throughout my Porsche life, my customer cars went out riding higher than they did when they came in (after a spring change) LOL. Nobody considers that worn ass stock spring.

The assumption is: "They last forever".. umm... NO

It wasn't unexpected per se in my case as a lot of measurements and work had been done before the M030 was fitted and it was known to be running as low as an M030 car before the M030 was fitted. It was interesting to see the effect of the tip kit and stiffer rear springs though.

so are you saying the spring rate slowly drops and this causes a similar drop in ride height?
and Brad- at -.5" rear ride height should my specs be this far off??? Are Taret arms a bandaid or a justifiable and expected cure? Are the offset bushings you make a .002" pressfit and have any ever split the cast arm after they're in use?

EDC- I fabricated another hole in the strut an inch higher to get the result I've got----1" drop FRONT

What's the Max camber you can get with the additional lowering?

I actually don't really want to lower the car much more if at all but interested to hear what results you can get from a Geo perspective.

I'm currently at FR -1.1, -1.2 and RR -2.1, -2.2 with adjusters set for min camber and toe-in. My camber adjustment seems to have more effect on toe than camber. The two points of adjustment are so geographically close to one another and that dam unyielding trailing arm! Augh

I am at just over -1.5 degrees neg camber on the front but I have the top mount slots drilled. There may be a fraction more to go. The rear is just under -1.5.

EDC is your car neutral at the limit? That's what I'm looking for...