When installing Bilstein PSS9s what

[jaykay]

..other componets are necessary complements? Of couse this all depends on the state of your bushing rubber

I reallize rear toe adjuster are crucial but where is the cut-off after that?? LCAs? front toe adjusters?? The car is street and track.

Here is a quote:

"PSS9’s are $2215 + 6-8 Hours Install + HST

Ride Height Set-Up, Corner Balance & Alignment is about 6-8 Hours + HST

Reason why I quoted 6-8 & 6-10 hours is because the car is 14 Years old and there

will be a lot of Corrosion to deal with, take time to get the Rusted Components loose

Rate is $100/hr

I would suggest getting RSS Front & Rear Toe Links, Front & Rear Lower Control Arms & Rear Upper Control Arms to complete the Package and Solid Set-Up for the Track.

RSS Toe Links are $499 + 1 Hour Install

I would suggest you also get the toe Locking Plates these are $95 install included in above


The Lower Control Arm are sufficient enough to adjust front and rear Camber

RSS Lower Control Arm is $1045.00 + 3 hour install


I would suggest you do this front and rear as well as you can control the rear camber with these and have a solid track set-up"
The alignment and set up time seems rather high to me. Any suggestions as to where it is prudent to stop???

Are front toe adjusters needed to dial out bump steer up front?

Perrhaps it is best to stick to the Spec Boxster configuration?

I woud like to avoid more labour for changes needed later..

[thstone]

Like most things in life... it depends on what you want to achieve and how much money you have to spend.

You can install only the PSS9 kit and leave it at that. But if you lower the car using the ride height adjustment on the PSS9's, then you'll also need adj rear toe links because the stock ones do not have enough adjustability to account for the lower ride height.

Of course, you will also have to address old or worn out components that may need replacement due to mileage or age. Top shock mounts (front and rear) are common to replace when the PSS9's are installed. As your shop suggested, there could many several other components that may need replacement. It depends on the condition of the components.

Next is sway bars. If you upgrade to the 996 GT-3 bar in front and the Tarrett bar in the rear, then you'll need front and rear adjustable sway bar end links because the stock ones do not have any adjustment range. I wouldn't install rear adj LCA's unless you find that you need them.

Next step is lower adjustable control arms in front. These will allow you to dial in enough neg camber to keep the tire flat with the suspension compressed on the track. Without these, the car may not have enough neg camber and you'll tear up the outside 1/3 of the tire on a consistent basis.

At this point, you basically have the Boxster Spec suspension and it is a very good and well tested system with the PSS9's. This will give you an excellent street/track suspension with reasonable adjustability. Also, there is a lot of experience with this system so you can get good apples-to-apples input on alignment and setup recommendations.

Here is what I installed: http://986forum.com/forums/general-discussions/35845-suspension-upgrade-week.html (Adj front LCA's were already on the car).

Beyond this, you can add more components but I'd suggest that the performance returns are going to start to decline as the cost continues to increase. Hence, this might be a good point to stop installing new parts and do some driving and see where you think that the suspension isn't performing and then address that later.

6-8 hours for ride height, corner balance, and alignment seems high. A good shop should be able to do it in 1/2 to 2/3 of that time.

Also, shop around for components. RSS makes awesome parts but they are expensive. Take a look at Tarrett and other brands. The Tarrett front adj LCA's are $715.

[Johnny Danger]

Are there adjustable drop links somewhere in there ?

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Johnny Danger

Are there adjustable drop links somewhere in there ?

Yes, I called them end links. Sorry if this caused any confusion.

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by thstone

Yes, I called them end links. Sorry if this caused any confusion.

TMan,

I have PSS9's installed on my vehicle, however, the "race prep" shop felt confident that they were able to accomplish an excellent "street" set-up without the need for adjustable control arms or link ends (drop links). Although, my vehicle felt transformed after installing the PSS9's, Ive wonder all of these years if my set-up is optimal ? Also, the shop claims to have corner balanced my vehicle, along with the height adjustment and alignment, however, in hindsight, I find it difficult to imagine that they were able to properly corner balance my vehicle without using adjustable drop links. Correct ?

[Flavor 987S]

I have PSS9's on my 993 Turbo. Great set-up. But are the 9's still available new? Are these a used set? I'd suggest you go the PSS10 route and get Bilstein's newest offering.

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by Flavor 987S

I have PSS9's on my 993 Turbo. Great set-up. But are the 9's still available new? Are these a used set? I'd suggest you go the PSS10 route and get Bilstein's newest offering.

I've had PSS9's installed on my vehicle since 2006. There were no 10's at the time.

[Flavor 987S]

Originally Posted by Johnny Danger

I've had PSS9's installed on my vehicle since 2006. There were no 10's at the time.

Correct. The 10's came out in 2009ish.

[jaykay]

I believe that there are no 10s for the Boxster only 9s.

Thanks Tom for your input. So the limit will be the spec Boxster set up.

I am I correct in thinking that corner balancing will not be accomplished without adjustable drop links and roll bars that can accept them?

Edit looks like JD asked the question already.

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by jaykay

I believe that there are no 10s for the Boxster only 9s.

Thanks Tom for your input. So the limit will be the spec Boxster set up.

I am I correct in thinking that corner balancing will not be accomplished without adjustable drop links and roll bars that can accept them?

Edit looks like JD asked the question already.

JK,

In the absence of adjustable drop links, I think what most knowledgeable race prep guys will do, is adjust the ride height (turns on the perch) to accommodate what changes in ride height will occur when the driver is seated. This as you probably know, is accomplished put simulating your weight during the set-up. While it's not optimal, is probably sufficient for street set-up. That's what was done in the case of my vehicle. I'd like to hear Tom's input on this though.

[jaykay]

I am also being quoted 1 hour installation for rear toe links which I would have thought would have been more than covered by the hours quote for the struts!

Also three additional hours for front LCA....would have thought this would be less when everything is apart!!!

Just a heads up: Rennline links seem to have the locking plates (eccentric adjuster) included where as others have them at an additional cost of $95

Oh yes what do we think about front bump steer?? Is a front toe link needed to combat this problem? My front end is so bad right now that it is hard for me to judge....wallows and understeers like crazy

The rear toe links from tarret and RSS are really great in that one can align them with the LCA for constant toe control with suspension travel

[Topless]

A few added bits...

The PSS9s are good tools but the real magic comes when an experienced suspension tech uses them to corner balance and align the car for it's intended use (street, track, dual purpose) and tire choices. When set up right the car will have increased grip and precision with even tire wear on four corners. That is a win.

Adjustable sways allow for tuning your setup to different tracks which is useful for competition but not necessary for street/DE cars. A well set up PSS9 car still feels very precise even on stock sways.

LCAs are only necessary if you need more than -2 degrees front camber to accommodate "camber hungry" comp tires. My car currently does not have LCAs and we were able to get an excellent dual-purpose setup without them and still get good grip and even tire wear. If I go with a more aggressive Comp tire that generates more lateral Gs, I will probably need LCAs.

Suspension setup is really all about managing your 4 contact patches and varies greatly depending on the tires you choose and your intended use for the car.

[jaykay]

Originally Posted by Topless

A few added bits...

The PSS9s are good tools but the real magic comes when an experienced suspension tech uses them to corner balance and align the car for it's intended use (street, track, dual purpose) and tire choices. When set up right the car will have increased grip and precision with even tire wear on four corners. That is a win.

Adjustable sways allow for tuning your setup to different tracks which is useful for competition but not necessary for street/DE cars. A well set up PSS9 car still feels very precise even on stock sways.

LCAs are only necessary if you need more than -2 degrees front camber to accommodate "camber hungry" comp tires. My car currently does not have LCAs and we were able to get an excellent dual-purpose setup without them and still get good grip and even tire wear. If I go with a more aggressive Comp tire that generates more lateral Gs, I will probably need LCAs.

Suspension setup is really all about managing your 4 contact patches and varies greatly depending on the tires you choose and your intended use for the car.

Great thank you. I don't plan on running anything more aggressive than 140
tread ware in the near future. I do wish to save future labour costs; it may be worth putting them in while things are apart and have a one time coarse set up....

[thstone]

Originally Posted by Johnny Danger

TMan,

I have PSS9's installed on my vehicle, however, the "race prep" shop felt confident that they were able to accomplish an excellent "street" set-up without the need for adjustable control arms or link ends (drop links). Although, my vehicle felt transformed after installing the PSS9's, Ive wonder all of these years if my set-up is optimal ? Also, the shop claims to have corner balanced my vehicle, along with the height adjustment and alignment, however, in hindsight, I find it difficult to imagine that they were able to properly corner balance my vehicle without using adjustable drop links. Correct ?

Well, mostly yes (they could corner balance the car) but a little bit no (without adj end links the corner balance could be biased).

First, corner balancing is done through the adjustment of the springs so adjustable drop links are not necessarily required. Of course, this can only be done on cars with coil over suspension. Adjusting the springs will either lighten or load the weight on a particular wheel. Of course, adjusting the springs also changes the ride height (how much depends on the stiffness of the spring and how out of balance the car is).

The magic in corner balancing is getting the ride height correct (including front to rear rake) and at the same matching the diagonal weight pairs (LF/RR to RF/LR). This is a somewhat iterative process (this is why it costs several hours of shop time to perform).

Corner balancing is best done with the sways unattached to avoid any pre-load that they might impart to the suspension/springs. However, if you have stock sways, then most often the car is corner balanced with the sways attached so any preload from the sways can be taken into account/compensated by the corner balance. However, some shops will corner balance with the stock sways unattached and then re-attach and measure the effect (load) added by the sways. If its not too much, then they will leave it at that.

Adjustable drop links allow the tuner to go that one small step further and re-attach the sway bars after the corner balance making sure that the sways don't add any preload to the suspension.

So, is having non-adjustable end links a big deal? Does the difference really matter? Hard to say, because it depends on the amount of load that the stock sways add to the suspension. And even though its there, the corner balance did compensate/account for it. But its not as precise or pure as the corner balance using adjustable end links.

As for simply setting the ride height equally and leaving it at that, this is readily acceptable for a regular street car. This is done all of the time. But understand that you're not going to get the most out of the suspension. And why install an expensive coil over suspension if you're not trying to get the very best out of it?

[Johnny Danger]

Originally Posted by thstone

Well, mostly yes (they could corner balance the car) but a little bit no (without adj end links the corner balance could be biased).

First, corner balancing is done through the adjustment of the springs so adjustable drop links are not necessarily required. Of course, this can only be done on cars with coil over suspension. Adjusting the springs will either lighten or load the weight on a particular wheel. Of course, adjusting the springs also changes the ride height (how much depends on the stiffness of the spring and how out of balance the car is).

The magic in corner balancing is getting the ride height correct (including front to rear rake) and at the same matching the diagonal weight pairs (LF/RR to RF/LR). This is a somewhat iterative process (this is why it costs several hours of shop time to perform).

Corner balancing is best done with the sways unattached to avoid any pre-load that they might impart to the suspension/springs. However, if you have stock sways, then most often the car is corner balanced with the sways attached so any preload from the sways can be taken into account/compensated by the corner balance. However, some shops will corner balance with the stock sways unattached and then re-attach and measure the affect (load) added by the sways. If its not too much, then they will leave it at that.

Adjustable drop links allow the tuner to go that one small step further and re-attach the sway bars after the corner balance making sure that the sways don't add any preload to the suspension.

So, is having non-adjustable end links a big deal? Does the difference really matter? Hard to say, because it depends on the amount of load that the stock sways add to the suspension. And even though its there, the corner balance did compensate/account for it. But its not as precise or pure as the corner balance using adjustable end links.

As for simply setting the ride height equally and leaving it at that, this is readily acceptable for a regular street car. This is done all of the time. But understand that you're not going to get the most out of the suspension. And why install an expensive coil over suspension if you're not trying to get the very best out of it?

TMan,
Thanks for the excellent and thorough explanation !

[jaykay]

Great we are going through a lot detail here...

Have another train of thought ..question

As Topless indicated front LCAs will become necessary to save and optimize R-compound tires. What exact tread ware threshold are we speaking about? Is there a tread ware number range where the arms are essential. If so what is it? Currently I plan to be in the 140 to 200 range.

Lets say one puts front LCAs in on PS2s and corner balance and set up is done. Then you change to R1Rs or some more sticky R comp. Will a completely new set up have to be done for each tire change? Have you wasted money setting up on PS2s?

Would be it be true to say that unless LCA installation is included with strut time you are wasting money because a complete setup must done for different tire compounds/styles anyway, and you should install them during one of these iterations to be cost effective?
(considering LCA installation labour is discrete/separate)

[Topless]

Running street compound tires and a good setup you should be fine without GT3 control arms. As you move towards softer compound tires, they generate a lot more lateral grip and require more negative camber. I like to make tire and setup choices once per year and run the same comp tire all season.

A rough guide for track days:

140 TW -1.5deg F camber
100 TW -2.0 deg F camber
40 TW -3 deg F camber
Racing slicks -3-4deg F camber

This is variable depending on specific tire choice and driving style but gets you in the ballpark. Final adjustments should be made after checking tire temps and wear patterns. Getting your setup just right means tires achieve max grip, wear evenly, and last a lot longer. Setup costs pale in comparison to shredding soft compound tire shoulders and eating a set of tires in one weekend. A $1600 set of Hoosier R6 might last 4 track days. Shredding a $1600 set of R6 comp tires in one day due to a lousy setup is painful.

[jaykay]

Nice information. So I should be able to get -1.5 with the stock arms?

[Topless]

Yep, my car is close to -2 degrees with stock arms and the front end significantly lowered. This is just enough for NT-01 tires and a bit too much for Hankook RS3s.

[Johnny Danger]

TMan & Topless,

What settings (1 through 10) do you have your PSS9's set at for track or street ?