Brake pads and DEs
 

I am planning to do my second DE in April. Part of the tech inspection is to make sure the brakes have at least half the pad remaining. My front pads are looking like they are about 60-70% worn so I need to do something about them.

So the question is, do I get a set of track pads that might get used once or twice a year, or do I get some new street pads? I was looking at the Hawk HPS for street pads. Not sure about track pads.

If I do get track pads I should probably replace both front and rear sets. But if I go with street pads, can I get away with just changing the front pads?

If I go with street pads, should I put the new ones in just for the track day and then swap them back out with the warn OEM pads that still have some life on them and hold onto the newer pads till the OEMs are worn out completely?

Any thoughts?

Todd

Lots of different ideas on this. I run 20 track days a year and do some joyrides and canyon carving on the weekends. For me, leaving the track pads on all the time make sense. I keep a spare set of partially worn stock pads in my spares kit just in case. If I am 300 miles from home competing for a TT championship on a Sunday and one of my pads develops issues, I have a backup set at the ready. your mileage may vary depending on how you intend to use your car.

I am in the same situation - I have three DE's planned this year at the Streets of Willow - the first in March, then another in May, and the last in Sept. My car is also my daily driver (only about 8K miles per year total since I live really close to my work).

After reading as much as I could, I've decided to put on new rotors and new EBC Redstuff pads (all four wheels) in the next week, break them in between now and March, and then see how well this setup works for both occasional track duty and daily driving through the rest of the year.

you will be tempted to 'save money' and buy street pads. avoid this; it's a false economy.

street pads get destroyed on the track and race pads destroy rotors on the street. get a dedicated set of track pads; it is most certainly cheaper in the long run.

example: my first year of driving events, i went through 5 sets of street pads and HATED the brakes at the track. ($500/yr)

my second year, i bought dedicated sets of race pads & street pads. they lasted TWO YEARS ($200/yr) even though i did more events.

that having been said, race pads will also give you a lot more confidence; the pedal will stay hard & the pads won't fade. MUCH safer.

finally, some recommendations: i like Hawk HT-10

I run Porterfield R4s. I boiled them within 2 laps at a DE. I had just been in my 944 race car and was driving the snot out of it.

So for the next DE at Fontana that I was going to, I got a pair of HT10's for the front. AMAZING difference! I even drove all the way from San Diego back to Seattle on the HT10's. A bit (OK a LOT!!!) of squeel but the performance was great.

I would say to get a pair of race pads for the front and trade them out. Makes the day so much better when you don't have to worry about fade.

I also agree to purchase a set of dedicated race pads, but be sure to purchase a set for all four wheels. Leaving street pads on the rear, with front race pads, gives a terrible imbalance in bite and could cause you to loose control of the car in heavy braking conditions. I've seen actual situations where the car has swapped ends and in speaking to the driver after the incident, it was determined pads were mismatched with no brake bias to compensate for the difference in grip level.

I've used Pagid Orange for years, with great results on my various 911s; I don't track the Boxster, other than to perform exhibition runs.

i disagree. when you add more braking to the front axle, comparatively LESS braking is required at the rear axle. race pads up front & street pads in back is okay, but the REVERSE is not okay.

under heavy braking, the nose dives and the rear end of the car begins to lift. the loss of weight over the rear axle means that the rear wheels are comparatively easy to lock up; this is why brakes are bigger up front. with street tires & OEM pads, the front axle is responsible for about 70% of braking. with race tires and race pads, it's more like 90%. this means that as you add grip / braking capability to the front, a REDUCTION in bias at the rear is required.

that having been said, the boxster is heavily front biased from the factory to help it cope safely with all weather conditions. if you're running a DE on a dry track, running race pads at all four corners will get you a bit more rear bias, allowing you to better use all 4 tires to slow you down.

as a rule of thumb, too much front bias will lengthen your braking distance. too much rear bias will make the car very squirrely under braking and can cause sudden oversteer while trail braking into a corner.

If you do a lot of track days you will surely run into brake issues at some point. Smoked pads, pad fade, boiled brake fluid, gummed rotors, warped rotors, bias issues, etc. Over the years I have gone through the trial and error process: run stock Porsche pads, Mintex, Pagid Orange, Pagid Black, Pagid Yellow RS19, Raybestos ST-43, Porsche rotors, Balo rotors, Zimmerman rotors, Porsche Fluid, ATE fluid, Motul fluid.

My current favorite setup:
Plain Jane Zimmerman rotors $80ea
Rayestos ST-43 Pads $250/set
Motul 600 brake fluid $16/pt
Porsche 997GT3 brake ducts $20/set

This is not a scientific study in any way, just the only setup that has never let me down. I change fluid twice a year and change pads when pad material approaches the metal backing thickness. I have explored different bias setups and just prefer using the same pad compound on all four corners. The ST-43 pads are a fully competition pad that last forever with no heat issues ever. They are a little intense for street use and will easily overpower a set of front 205 street tires quickly invoking ABS. They also squeal a bit around town when cold. With a set of comp tires running deep into braking zones on a hot day (95F) they are flawless.

Hopefully someone will find this useful.

Those GT3 brake ducts
 

I put in a set of those last year and at Mid-OH I couldn't really tell any difference running stock 987 rotors, motul 600 + carbotech Xp8's all around with Kumho XS tires

Went to VIR this fall using Nitto NT -05's and was amazed --considering the higher speeds--that I never had one issue with the brakes for 3 days with 4 sessions a day. The brakes were consistently solid when other guys were complaining about brake fade; might have been those $30 ducts :)

Where can you purchase these

???
The ducts are available from any Porsche dealer.
The rest can be purchased from Porterfield
http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/

I saw Suncoast had the brake ducts but checked Pelican for the rotors and pads and could not find them listed. I have a 2001 Boxster S. You can usually find them for the stock Boxster but not the S. Do you put the ducts on just the front rotors or both front and rear?

The GT3 ducts go in front. Make sure the stock rear ducts are still in place. Porterfield has your Zimmerman rotors also.

I don't see stock rear ducts on my 2000S, or in the Boxster PET.
Pictures? part number?

the rear ducts are not really ducts so much as diverters. they're they look like 6" windshield wiper blades sticking down off the shear plate uner the transmission.

rear ducts
 

could you point out what you are talking about on this picture? Only thing I see is the two scoops on the skid plate that look like they feed air to the tranny.

Yep, those rubber flappy things hanging from the shear plate move air to the rear brakes and engine bay. The can get scrubbed off pretty easily if you roll over a dead opossum or something.

Link for the fronts:
http://www.****************************************************.com/product/9973414839299734148492.html

I got my GT3 front brake ducts from eBay. $40

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220538250282&viewitem= &sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT

i got my front ducts from Sunset Imports for $20 about a year ago.
you might want to price check with them.

www.****************************************************.com

Tommy, who built your exhaust? Looks good. How much weight did you save? Change handling by losing weight at the tail? Have you measured performance or do you have specs? Didn't mean to hijack but it caught my attention.


Thanks, Ray.

That isn't my car, just a picture I had on file.

The exhaust was done by Precision Chassis Works

I have to agree with a lot of the other replies here, and I'd like to share my experience too.

I have a 987 Boxster Coupe, sometimes referred to as a Cayman S. :) Anyway, I found that the answer to your question depends very much on your experience on the track. When I was a Green level driver, a beginner, I was able to get 25,000 miles including 12 track days out of my front pads. They were two years old. This past July I dropped in a set of Pagid Blues, hoping they would be a good compromise, somewhere between track and street. Well, my driving improved drastically this past summwer, thanks lots of seat time. I burned through those Blues in 3 months, less than 5,000 miles, about 6 track days....!!! :eek:

I was pounding these brakes, and in many cases gassing them off (over heating them). When you super heat a pad past its maximum working temperature, they lose grip and just wear out. I would have saved a pile of money if I had stepped up to the Pagid Yellows, which is what I replaced the Blues with. These pads don't gas off or fade like the Blues or the OEs, and because of that they are likely to last very long. The jury is still out. Check back with me later this summer.

How many track days have you done? What group are you in? If you're in the beginner group, the OE pads are fine. If your in the intermediate group or higher, step up and get a good track pad. It will save you money in the long run.

In regard to changing the brakes on just one axle, don't do it. The new pads are going to have a different coeficient of friction, which is going to change your brake bias. If you want the same balanced braking that you have now, don't mix and match pads front to back.

The track day in April will only be my second DE. I do not plan on over driving the brakes... I hope.

Looking at my rear pads I am thinking that they could probably be replaced. My plan right now is to replace both the front and rear sets with an OEM / street performance pad. I will also do a brake flush and heck, while the wheels are off, add some GT3 brake ducts.

So, any recommendations on a set of pads? I was thinking Textar, Padgid Blue (4-2 or 5?), Hawk HPS, or EBC red stuff.

I like the idea of lower dust, but I do not want anything that will perform less than the OEM pads I have on there now. The car gets driven about 2 days a week now and even more in warmer weather so I don't want to lose my street drive-ability.

Honestly, if this is your second track day, stick with the OE Textar pads. They will be more than enough for a long time. They are great on the street, even in the hardest braking situations. When you get to the point where on the track you start feeling a long semi soft pedal when braking hard, then it's time to think about track pads. (That's not your fluid boiling, it's friction loss on the pad.)

Stay away from the Pagid Blues. In my opinion, they are junk. I was not at all satisfied with them. They bit only marginally better than the OEs, but made a lot of noise and wore out really fast.

Pagid Orange and Yellows are awesome, but they squeel like a stuck pig on the street (and on the track too).

For track use, you should flush at least once every 2 years. I recommend once a year for track use.

More on the Pagid Blues
 

Thsi is why I was dissapointed with the Pagid Blues.

This is what they looked like on July 17th.

http://home.comcast.net/~michael.sou...s/IMG_5873.JPG


And this is what they looked like on October 18th, after 4,825 miles, 6 track days and only 3 months:

http://home.comcast.net/~michael.sou...s/IMG_6975.JPG


http://home.comcast.net/~michael.sou...s/IMG_6983.JPG

Why you want to use the OE pads
 

So why not just get a set of super bad *** track pads and leave them in there? I'll tell you why, no - better I'll show you. Take a short ride on the street in my Cayman S with Pagid Yellows in the car (right after a track event).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckwxPwwhCoY

Looks like the Yellows are a good way to let them know you are coming! That is a little loud!

Ok, any experience with Pagid RS 4-2-1 Black? They are saying it is street pad for light track duty.

http://home.comcast.net/~michael.sou...s/IMG_5867.JPG

The RS 4-2-1 are the Blues, and I honestly can't think of any situation under which I'd recommend them to a friend. They are only slightly better on the track than the OEs, but inferior in regard to noise and wear.

Man... All of these options are getting confusing. Here is the info from pagid on the Black RS 4-2-1 pads.

http://www.pagid-brake-pads.co.uk/products/rs421-black-carbon-based.php


This is from a vendor site.

http://www.imgt3performance.com/products/2000-2004-porsche-boxster-s-986-pagid-rs-4-2-1-black-sport-front-brake-pads/?F_VehicleId=60&F_All=Y

Do you think it is the Blue compound painted black?

Suggestion:
Call these guys and tell them your driving plans, ask for recommendations. They know brakes and understand customer service. www.porterfield-brakes.com

Forget about the color, and focus on the compound. RS 4-2-1 is what it is. That's what I had, and I didn't like them. Save your money dude. Get another set of stock Textars (made by Pagid), or put the money toward a set of Pagid Oranges (stock pad used on current GT-3 RS).

I'm telling you right now, if you buy these RS 4-2-1s, you're going to be sorry. My experience isn't unique. I have several friends who have also used these pads and they were equally dissapointed. It's not that these are bad pads, it's that the OE pads are so good that there is little to no different between them and the RS 4-2-1, and in some ways the OEs are better (noise control & wear).

I installed cross-drilled rotors (Cquence) and EBC Redstuff pads about two weeks ago. So far, its been all break in with lots of dust and some brake squealing - as expected and as described in the EBC info that comes with the pads.

The pads seem to be quieting down now (~200 city miles) and the rotors have a bluish-grey color. I'll do a final bedding session this weekend per the EBC instructions.

Thus far, impossible (way too early) to really say how they compare to the stock pads. I'll post an update later this month after the break-in period is done and another post after my first DE on March 5th.

Ok, EBC Redstuff pads and Cquence drilled rotors are bedded in and working great.

Break-in period was almost 300 miles of city driving. Lots of squeal and dust during that time.

No sqeal at all now and dust is only about 1/4 of factory pads. That means that I'll get the same dust in a month that I used to get in week. Its a huge improvement in terms of dust.

Braking performance feels excellent with much more grip during a hard stop from freeway speeds. No problems on cool mornings when pads are cold.

Will report back again after my first DE at Streets of Willow on 2/26.

Did you do some multiple high speed stops to bed the pads properly? It is important to coat the rotors with pad material so you don't get pulsations or severe wear, as you use the brakes harder. Driving on the street does not allow the pad material to get hot enough to properly bed the pads. I'm not sure what instructions EBC supply, but a simple search will give you good bedding guidelines.

Yes, I followed the EBC instructions to repeat 5 hard stops from 60mph to 20mph and then drove around without using the brakes to let them cool.

Thanks for the reminder.

Quote: "Yes, I followed the EBC instructions to repeat 5 hard stops from 60mph to 20mph and then drove around without using the brakes to let them cool. "

If you use your pads on the street, you need to rebed them before the track. The abrasive properties of the pads erases the transfer layer on the rotor under street use.

To the OP, what tires are you using? This will point to how much pad you can get away with. With R-comps, you can use just about any track pad. With street tires, you need to balance stopping power with tire grip. You don't want to hit ABS every time. Similarly, you don't want to run R-comps with OEM pads - you'll chew the pads away and likely boil your fluid. It's a system, so you need to match components as best you can.

That being said, rotors and fluid are the easy part of the system. Get any high temp fluid [Motul, SRF, etc] and you're good for street and track. Rotors are mostly a non-issue - even if you use OEM. You'll burn through a set of cross-drilled OEM/Zimmerman rotors pretty quick [cracks between holes], but they are cheap. Upgrading to slotted or dimpled will cost you more money, but last longer before they crack out. Once you start tracking more, you probably won't ever wear a set of rotors under the minimum thickness.

PFC and Pagid endurance pads work well for street and track use. If you don't like squealing, just swap to OEM pads after each event. It's quick once you get the hang of it. If you have a backup set of wheels with track tires, this is a really good solution.

If brake cooling becomes an issue (which is unlikely), post another thread, there are a few things you can do.

-td

**UPDATE**

Ran my first DE at the Streets of Willow last Saturday. The Cquence drilled rotors and EBC Redstuff brake pads performed flawlessly. Outstanding braking with no fade at all. Dust level still very low.

Will drive the car daily to work this week and have another DE this coming Sunday at SoW. Thus far, couldn't be happier with this setup for both street and DE track use.

Will run Sunday and then take a look at the pad wear next week and report back with how they are look after a few thousand street miles and two track days.

DE Pads
 

The best OEM performance element of a Boxster, on the track, is the brakes. This is particularly true if you have the "S" version. You can out brake any other car.

The weak link is the rotors - particularly on the front. With heat cycling, the OEM cross-drilled rotors develop cracks from hole to hole. When this occurs, they need to be replaced. The Performance Friction, two-piece, dimpled, front rotors are a good alternative. Cracks aren't a problem with these rotors, and when the rotor wears down, you can keep the top hat and simply replace the rotor element.

OEM street pads will not hold up under track conditions - even DE events. Pagid, PFC, and Hawk all make track-worthy alternatives. My current preference is Hawk DTC 70's on the front and DTC 60's on the rear. Replacing the pads is a simple procedure. You need a jack, an 18 mm socket, a needle nose pliers, and a vice grips. If you drive your car on the street, put the OEM pads in the calipers. Replace them with "track pads" when you go to the track.

If you're on the track with your car, you need to have a high-temp brake fluid. There are many options. I currently use Motul 600, but there are others. High performance brake fluid is hydroscopic, and needs to be changed periodically.

If you do a number of track events each year, you'll need to have the calipers rebuilt. How often, depends on how many miles you do on the track, and how much you use the brakes.

If you have a 986 or 987 with PSM, the computer will use the rear brakes to stabilize the car - of course this depends on how you drive on track. If you're finding that the rear pads are wearing out and the calipers are turning "purple", this is your problem. Turn the PSM off, or slow down. Of note - If you've turned off the PSM, when you activate the ABS, the computer will turn the PSM back on.

Ultimately, the trick to going fast around a track is to not use the brakes! Boxsters (and Caymans) are wonderfully balanced cars. If you can learn how to do it, you can get around a track using the brakes sparingly.

I'm still learning.


PCS5978
www.M96infosource.com

LOL!!!! Comedy gold right there.

**UPDATE #2**

Ran the second DE in two weeks at the Streets of Willow yesterday. Tons of track time with only two run groups so I got 3-4 hours of total track time and was exhausted!. How do I explain to my boss that I'm too tired from track driving to want to come to work on Monday's? (but I made it in anyway).

The Cquence drilled rotors and EBC Redstuff brake pads still performed flawlessly. Definitely got the brakes hot as I was working on braking later without engaging ABS (its a fine line!). Overall, I had outstanding braking with no fade even after two back to back 25 min sessions (with a 5 min pit). Dust level still very low.

With about 2,000 street miles and two DE's, this setup appears to be working well for both street and DE track use.

Will pull a few brake pads and do a close inspection of the rotors and report back on wear this weekend when I planned to work on the car anyway (oil change, etc.)