Go Back   986 Forum - for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners > Porsche Boxster & Cayman Forums > Performance and Technical chat

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-21-2010, 04:35 PM   #1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: 33139
Posts: 99
IMS and Clutch - Estimate

I was just quoted 14 hours to do a clutch job with IMS retro fit. This sounds extraneous.

Thoughts?
funkdefino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2010, 04:56 PM   #2
Engine Surgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cleveland GA USA
Posts: 2,424
Sounds along the correct lines based on the time thats necessary to do the job correctly.
__________________
Jake Raby/www.flat6innovations.com
IMS Solution/ Faultless Tool Inventor
US Patent 8,992,089 &
US Patent 9,416,697
Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
Jake Raby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2010, 05:15 PM   #3
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: 33139
Posts: 99
Alright... well you are definitely the expert.

I was also told that replacing the flywheel was not necessary as well as the Pilot Bearing.

It's a reputable shop but their advice makes me nervous. I would just assume replace everything in there since most of the parts are way cheaper than going back in there again...

Any advice you can give me Jake? My car is at 95k so your shop won't even perform this service, right?
funkdefino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-21-2010, 06:02 PM   #4
Engine Surgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cleveland GA USA
Posts: 2,424
We typically don't apply the bearing here after 80K miles, without a very good evaluation of the rest of the engine. I also require some very good understandings about engine life and return on investment at higher mileages.

The flywheel can't be assumed good until it is checked. If the clutch disc has been worn into the rivets, the flywheel is toast. if the second mass has become loose, it is also toast.

We charge a flat cost of 3,500.00 for the parts and labor for the IMSR, that even includes engine oil, clutch arrangement, IMS bearing kit and all associated labor to include chain tensioner cleaning. We also install the latest RMS update as well. I do a before and after dyno evaluation and drive the car at least 160 miles before it leaves my shop.. We want to ensure the procedure was done correctly and no leaks are present.

Maybe that will give you a baseline for what the shop is charging you.
__________________
Jake Raby/www.flat6innovations.com
IMS Solution/ Faultless Tool Inventor
US Patent 8,992,089 &
US Patent 9,416,697
Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
Jake Raby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 03:25 AM   #5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sanford NC
Posts: 2,315
I'd like to hear some of your thoughts on what an owner should understand

Re your "I also require some very good understandings about engine life and return on investment at higher mileages.".

Are you saying that ~80k so many other things are worn out that it makes sense only to do a total rebuild and refresh?

I don't understand how a total engine rebuild would ever make economic sense on a $9-16k car that could be replaced for that. Emotional sense is a completely different story (peace of mind, more power, more mileage, "its my Porsche", etc).
mikefocke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 06:49 AM   #6
Engine Surgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cleveland GA USA
Posts: 2,424
Quote:
Re your "I also require some very good understandings about engine life and return on investment at higher mileages.".

Are you saying that ~80k so many other things are worn out that it makes sense only to do a total rebuild and refresh?
Not really. What I am saying is at higher mileage points the risks for other issues popping up that could find a finger pointed at the IMSR increase. What the higher mileage retrofit client must understand is the procedure isn't magical and won't restore the entire engine to like new status all alone. I have lots of people that don't know or understand this and expect their investment in the IMSR to cure everything, but thats just not the case.

I prefer to apply the retrofit to lower mileage engines because the return on the investment is much better. I look at things from a liability aspect for my company as well, its counterproductive for us to do these sorts of procedures on a Porsche that has 150K miles. If I do a procedure on a higher mileage engine I thoroughly evaluate the engine before we apply the IMSR to include pulling the sump plate, doing a good sniff test on the oil, running it on the dyno and looking at the over-rev counter. The last thing we need is to touch an engine thats questionable and have it fail, because the IMSR will get the blame.

I learned long ago that high mileage engines can at times break if you just "mess with them" and thats the last thing we need. The fact is anytime any shop touches a car and that car has a failure of any sort in the short term after the shop repaired it, the shop is going to get the blame and thats not a game that I play.. Not working with every car that comes our direction is one of the ways I built a reputation and it is necessary when maintaining that reputation. There are many others that will take the risks and they need every job they can get.

Quote:
I don't understand how a total engine rebuild would ever make economic sense on a $9-16k car that could be replaced for that. Emotional sense is a completely different story (peace of mind, more power, more mileage, "its my Porsche", etc).
ALL of my current engine build clients are keeping their cars, I don't know of one car with one of my engines installed that has been sold after I built the engine. My engine cost more than the car, but thats nothing new with Porsches. I have provided engines that cost more than TWICE what the car was worth 15 years ago when working with the 914 and even the 356. That continues today with the 914.

The prices of engine replacements for these cars won't be getting any cheaper.. Fact is when the cars were newer and worth more the engines cost LESS, which defies convention. This engine is a ******************** to build, it requires special tools and an assembler that is very anal and attentive. If you drop your guard with an M96 it'll last 5 minutes after you start it for the first time.

Thats why its key for us to get the knowledge and resource material for the DIY owner to do the work themselves. Our first book should be done in Spring 2010, I wrote a chapter last night :-)
__________________
Jake Raby/www.flat6innovations.com
IMS Solution/ Faultless Tool Inventor
US Patent 8,992,089 &
US Patent 9,416,697
Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist
Jake Raby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 07:42 AM   #7
Track rat
 
Topless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cucamonga CA
Posts: 3,640
Garage
Jake: "doing a good sniff test on the oil"

Interesting. I have pulled a dipstick and noticed a strong odor from the oil in a 986 before. What is it? Fuel contamination?
__________________
2009 Cayman 2.9L PDK (with a few tweaks)
PCA-GPX Chief Driving Instructor
Topless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 08:18 AM   #8
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: West Chester, PA
Posts: 211
Based upon another of Jake's posts, I think the smell he's referring to is the smell of the IMS bearing grease cooking and getting into the oil. A very distinct burnt grease smell, I'm guessing.

Fuel in the oil means absolutely nothing. You'll get fuel smell from the oil after a single start on a cold day, if the engine is immediately shut off. Not uncommon to find 3% of the oil's volume is actually fuel, unless the car was just driven for at least 20 minutes.
JoeFromPA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 08:23 AM   #9
Engine Surgeon
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Cleveland GA USA
Posts: 2,424
Fuel in the oil does mean something.. Fuel intrusion with these engines is a real issue.

Fuel isn't a lubricant, its a solvent...

Fuel intrusion is one of the things that starts the stage 1 IMS bearing failure as the fuel contaminated oil attacks the outer seal of the factory bearing and begins to wash away the permanent lubrication. The seal is rubber, and that rubber doesn't like solvent/ fuel at all.

I have used a device to measure fuel and coolant intrusing in the past in my 2.5 Boxster and found that are 3K miles using the Kauffman curve as a general rule the intrusion was already excessive.

I am more concerned with ending up in a situation where an engine has another failure, but the IMSR is blamed and we have to fight to prove that our work wasn't the root of the problem.. With some failures there isn't enough left of the engine to tell what failed first. I avoid those situations like the plague as well as the people who I sense could be trigger happy to call a lawyer...
__________________
Jake Raby/www.flat6innovations.com
IMS Solution/ Faultless Tool Inventor
US Patent 8,992,089 &
US Patent 9,416,697
Developer of The IMS Retrofit Procedure- M96/ M97 Specialist

Last edited by Jake Raby; 07-22-2010 at 08:27 AM.
Jake Raby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2010, 08:50 AM   #10
Track rat
 
Topless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cucamonga CA
Posts: 3,640
Garage
I would say this oil had a strong burnt smell. Oil had been in the car for approx. 3000 miles and still looked pretty clean with good color. 80K miles on the motor and the guy is pretty active with track days. No known overheat issues. Just unusual oil odor??
__________________
2009 Cayman 2.9L PDK (with a few tweaks)
PCA-GPX Chief Driving Instructor
Topless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2010, 05:57 PM   #11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: 33139
Posts: 99
I just wanted to say thanks to Jake for chiming in on this. Your help in pointing out things I should be considering when getting this kind of service done has been very helpful!

I wish I was closer to your shop or could afford to ship my car to you. I'm planning a little road trip in a few months. I'll be sure to schedule a visit when I'm up your way. We'll have to figure out a few things to get replaced/fixed/upgraded while I'm there.

Once I finalize my decision on which shop I chose down here and why I'll post that info as well as a review of my experience once completed. Hopefully that will help others in the South Florida area.

Again... Thanks Jake and everyone who has added to this thread!
funkdefino is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:30 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page