How many miles are on your IMS Retrofit?
 

So now at just over 71000 mi on my 2003 Boxster S, the clutch is slipping pretty bad and it is time for me to replace it. While everything is taken apart, I am installing a new clutch kit, flywheel, RMS and I am seriously considering doing LN Engineering's IMS retrofit. The car is my daily driver and I plan on keeping it for a very long time. I have read a lot on the subject of IMS failures and the new retrofit kit and how it is a very good idea to get it done while replacing the clutch, but have not come across a whole lot about how many miles people have racked up so far after doing the procedure. I know that the ceramic hybrid bearing is of an extremely high quality and is supposed to last much longer than a standard steel bearing, but it is a relatively new procedure (about 2-3 years old now, I think) so I can't imagine there are a lot of boxsters with a ton of miles on the retrofit.

So for those of you that have made the plunge and had the procedure done, how many miles have you driven since the install?

Should I just bite the bullet and pay the extra money to have one installed?

Thanks!

A lot of the labor cost for an IMS bearing replacement is getting to the bearing - why pay for the labor twice?

Hey Tony, thank you for the quick response.

I am well aware of the effort that it takes to get to the bearing and remove it and I do not want to have to do it twice. That is part of the reason I am asking about how many miles people have on theirs. To get an idea of the real world longevity of the piece. If a bunch of people, for example, have 60k+ miles on it with no issues, then it sounds a lot more reasonable to pay the extra money for the higher end bearing as opposed to say 10k miles with no issues. Does that make sense? Some say that it is an unproven design and some say that I would be crazy not to do it. I got over 71000 miles on the stock bearing (which for all I know is still good) so I would hope that paying 30+ times the price for a higher end bearing would yield much greater mileage. So would like to know how far people have actually driven with the retrofit to help prove the concept to myself and a lot of other people that it is worth it to pay the extra money.

Also, I notice you are in Maryland. If you had one put in, where did you have it installed?

I still have the original Porsche bearing, unless a previous owner did something. I bought the car a little over a year ago. But seeing as how the retrofit bearing has only been out for a short while I can't imagine there are many people with 60k miles on it.

FWIW, I have a tip and if I end up having to do an RMS fix or pulling the transmission out, I would certainly make that the time for and IMS bearing fix.

While the procedure to fit this bearing into an assembled engine while in the car is still relatively new, the bearing and its application to the M96 is not. This bearing was first used in our IMS updates that have at least two more years of service than the retrofit procedure. NONE have failed.

A couple of months ago I had a rash of people that had reservations about the retrofit, because it hadn't been around for 10 years. In fact two of these people were members of their local Porsche drivers club and both were considering the procedure but weren't happy because we could not whisper things in their ears that they wanted to hear.

In a matter of 6 weeks both of those people suffered an IMS bearing failure, costing them about 16K each. After they experienced the failure one of them called me to apologize for his reservation and thanked Charles and I for developing the bearing and procedure.

What we have brought to the table is more than the bearing, its the ability to EASILY change the bearing that Porsche says is not serviceable at all. After the retrofit is carried out the first time it can be carried out much easier in the future with the same tools that were used the first time. Even if the life of the bearing was only 25K (just a wild number!) the cost of doing the swap would still be less than changing a timing belt on a Honda or Toyota.

I have personally pout 40K on my personal cars equipped with the retrofit bearing, that includes the very first bearing that was ever successfully retrofitted. We practice what we preach.

Anyone who has ever experienced silicon nitride ceramic composites in automotive, aerospace or medical device applications would understand why the material this bearing is comprised of is virtually indestructible. It is used in Shuttle components, turbine engines and even body armor.

Follow this link to the company of one of my clients who is scheduled to have his retrofit carried out in a couple of months.
www.amedicacorp.com
Make sure you view the company overview video on the home page.

As soon as he heard of the retrofit and read about the material it is comprised of, he immediately called to schedule a procedure. He develops and tests medical devices including artificial vertebrae and joints that are comprised of the exact same material that the retrofit bearing utilizes.

I first used silicon nitride in an automotive engine in 1999, then no one had heard of it. The parts I installed then are still in service today, they have completed 8 Baja 1000 races and still have not needed replacement-

I had my car serviced at GT Performance in Edgewood and I'm very pleased with their service, price, and quality of work. Gennady is a really cool guy with good demeanor. When I have the cash for it, I will have them install the IMS retrofit if I have it done locally. GT is also listed in Charles Navarro's list of approved installers.

Ideally I will ship it to Jake to have the IMS done along with other mods he recommends. Like I said before, when I have the cash. I'm hoping the odds are in my favor til then.

Regardless of the new bearing's unproven reliability in the "real world", it is made of higher quality materials, has better access to lubrication, and is backed by Jake's outstanding reputation-both in the M96 and Type IV engines.

Thank you for responding Jake. I was hoping you would chime in!

I am very excited about doing the retrofit, but I only hope you understand where I am coming from. In theory, everything that I have read about it suggests that it there is no reason why it shouldn't last for 100k miles or more. It is explained very well on LN's site and by yourself and Charles on this and other sites. I guess I am more curious if anyone has been able to really get a lot of miles on these. So I guess that's why I was hoping you would respond. I figured you were probably the only one who has really put these to the test through your development with LN and its good to see that you have been since 1999. Makes me feel a lot better about paying the premium for the retrofit instead of swapping it for a steel bearing.

I guess If i don't like it, I could always use the material and have Amedica swap out my bones. I can be like Wolverine, but with ceramic instead of animantium. HA!!!!

Yeah, ideally I would love to send my car down to Jake as well, but with it being my daily driver it might be kind of hard.

I have actually been in touch with Sloan at SSI Performance in Parkville/Towson. He is also on the list of recommended installers so I will probably take it to him. Edgewood is just a little too far from Owings Mills for me to justify the drive. Hell, with as bad as my clutch is slipping, I don't think ill make it!

Dude, seriously, take a hike. All you have ever done is bash everything Jake does and says. Who do you think you are and why are you here? Is your response even somewhat relevant to my original post? No, so stay on topic or get a life. You have nothing to contribute to this forum.

What does that even mean "It is only relevant if you passed the second grade"? Your first post does nothing to answer my original question -- How many miles do you have on your IMS Retrofit? Maybe I am missing something because I haven't passed second grade, but how does questioning Jake's involvement with LN have anything to do with my question? Please enlighten me, sppmo

So what if Jake has a financial stake? This is his business and his work supports our cars. Your argument is irrelevant. Jake presents his findings and if you don't believe it don't buy his products or services. I think you're in the minority here who see his posts as advertisements. They are jyst good information and people are asking him to quote them a price. We live in a capitalist society so live with the fact that someone is selling a product. Yes he makes money but he has shown he stands behind his products 100%.
Also just because a magazine says IMS failures are rare does not mean it doesn't happen. Failures have been documented over and over. We all play the odds of failure and the retrofit kit reduces the risk. Is it 100% failproof? Nothing is absolute but it helps and we are lucky to have an expert taking interest in our investment.

Nice for you to join us again.. Hope things are going well for you on "Earth". We still don't know who you are or where you are from, and you won't tell us after being asked several times. We'll have to assume you are a Troll, posting at a location under a bridge, from a laptop stealing internet from a nearby Motel 6..

I have worked with LN Engineering since before they were a company, just a couple of really hardcore students with some awesome capabilities and talent. We have worked together to "co-develop" dozens of products for Porsches, first air-cooled and then water-cooled. I have ZERO vested interest in LN Engineering, I have my own company that was founded in 1992 by me. LN and Charles have helped me on many occasions with the manufacturing of one off components for my engines and we work well together. We are able to couple engineering, manufacturing, practical application and evaluation all into one package.

Its pretty straight forward, either you recognize the IMS issue or you think we are full of crap. Either way, the fact is the decision is yours, to either take your chances or just drive on like nothing is wrong. To date I have refused to convince anyone to carry out the IMS retrofit, just state the facts, send them to the appropriate places online to gain information and let the decision be yours. After we talk to potential IMSR clients we don't call them back and pester them or try to frighten them into the bearing retrofit.. The decision is theirs. When I am asked "Do you think that I should do this bearing retrofit?" I simply respond with "do your research."

To date bearings are not in use that have been applied for 100K miles and it'll probably take another two years for the mileage points to get that high from retrofitted Porsches. We could lie to you and tell you we had already reached that point, but Charles and myself do not operate companies with those types of morals. We'd rather lose your business through your doubt and reservation as to lie to you just to squeeze a dollar from your wallet.

The bearings we have outfitted have a 100% effectiveness rating currently. Over time we will experience failures and we will learn from them just like we have everything else.

I am proud to have assisted with the development of the procedure to extract this bearing and make the procedure simple enough to be carried out by DIY enthusiast and Porsche shops that have zero M96 engine experience. Porsche said that couldn't be done and maintains that.

Be thankful that you have the choice of retrofitting your bearing, this time 18 months ago that wasn't a possibility.

Your Welcome.

YThe question the OP asked was how many miles are on your IMS bearing, since SPPMO doesn't have an IMS retrofitted car it makes me wonder why he even posted? To answer the question the OP asked, I have 40K on retrofitted cars that are currently my personal property.

Most IMSR purchasers aren't online, to get answers to this question you'd have to use a more effective tool than the web.

Thank you Jake. Myself and everyone else here respects your honesty and devotion.

Regardless of what sppmo thinks, my IMS retrofit is now on order and will be here Friday!

LN Engineering has a link to my site because they like to work with us and we provide the most comprehensive installation of their IMS retrofit bearing. When we carry out these procedures they don't have to support us, we never call with questions, because we improvise, adapt and overcome challenges that would stop others with less experience in their tracks.

Like someone else said, even if I did have an investment in LN Engineering what business of yours would that be? NONE.

I believe in teamwork, if Charles and I hadn't teamed up to do this development it probably still wouldn't be applicable today. Porsche would have made at least another 150K from sales of engines that we have been able to save when caught in the middle of an IMS bearing failure.

One last thing:
FYI: You'll not find the IMS bearing retrofit components or tools on my site currently. We have not sold the bearings at retail or wholesale since February as our focus has been on the PROCEDURE and carrying those procedures out here at our facility along with fully updated engine builds. We could no longer support retail sales and support and I closed my store while we focused on our specialty. It is still closed today and we are not selling individual bearings or tools.

So currently and for the past 5 months we have not "earned any money from the parts/tools" as you reference. If you are going to make statements, please educate yourself before you make them.

If you are not going to stay on topic, take a hike. This forum is for constructive and informative information, not your idiotic comments. Either shut it and move on or change your attitude! There is no room for you here. :mad:


Jake, I appreciate all of the research and accomplishments you have successfully done for Porsche. Your insight and information have been very useful to me.

I didn't start the "hysteria", failed engines and their owners did. Matter of fact the failures are what led us to work our asses off to find a "fix" and it took several years to accomplish.

Its not like the bearing was made and then the failures occurred!

If you aren't concerned with the older cars and don't care about fixes for them because of their diminishing values then why are you so concerned with what we are doing? I know why.

Sppmo, thanks for informing us that someone is out there trying to earn a living and for protecting us from all the profiteers.

You criticize Jake for profiting from his labor and having a link to LNE on his site to "warn" us that Jake us profiting from us but if YOUR car dies, you're willing to fork over your money to Porsche who is knowingly and willingly selling a defective engine. Are they not out to make money? Don't they have ads on this site like Jake?

Your logic is fundamentally flawed.

Perhaps you can "simply buy a newer one" but most of us aren't graced with your wealth and must keep driving " something so old with diminished value". But who knows, maybe the value will climb again. Who knew that a '69 Camaro would sell for a 100k today?

Sorry, I'll get back on the topic as well. No more from me. But this nonsense makes my blood boil.

+1 on that!

You must really be pissing off yourself with this fear campaign you are attemting. I suspect it has more to do with marketing than anything else.

I read the Club Lexus forum often & the moderators there deal with trolls like this swiftly by banning them. :mad:

We all were really counting on that being your "last and final comment" I don't think we can trust anything you write! :barf:

Who ever you are, you have now pissed me off.. Previous to this comment you were just an irritating troll, now you are insinuating that we are running an unfair business and "ripping people off".

I challenge you to find ONE of the IMS retrofit purchasers that we have installed a bearing for that feels they have been "ripped off". I haven't instilled fear in anyone, just told them exactly what the issues were and shared the stories that most would never get to see.

It doesn't appear that too many people care about what you think or want to read your comments. It seems to me that you are just another "vendor hater". Vendor haters work to break the back bone of those who actually give a damn about your car. Keep hating me, I love every minute of it.

so Jake im a little bit confused now. First, you said that you streamlined the process so that the motivated home garage wrench turner could DIY. But, then you said you don't sell the parts.

So as of right now I can't buy the bearing from you and DIY the project? or can I lol :confused:

I have almost 18,000 miles on an IMS Replacement (not retrofit) and is probably one of the first ones ever done.

My wife is driving one that has a couple thousand miles on an IMSR.

My sister-in-law's IMSR is 6 months old and ~4500 miles or so I'm guessing.

There were 2 2003 Boxster S IMS failures last month in Houston.

One of them is at our shop now. Sadly it had just been purchased,
and prior to purchase inspected at a dealership who found an RMS
leak and charged the original owner $2500 to fix.
For that kind of money an indie can do the IMSR, RMS, Clutch and probably
hand back a handful of franklins. To me that is getting ripped off!

Never mentioned the IMSR -- or we might have never have seen the car at the shop.

When I made a visit to the local Porsche dealership and talked to the head mechanic. He raved about the IMSR and said that they had done several.

My philosophy is if I open up the engine -- if its my engine/car it gets done.
If it is someone elses, I recommend they strongly consider having it done
if the labor to get to that point is coincident with some other repair.

ymmv,

m

LN sells the parts... Just because we streamlined the procedure and helped make the last tool doesn't mean that we have to continue selling the parts.. I've been focusing on development and we can't do that if we have to field 20 phone calls a day on how the process is done..

At some point we may go back to selling the parts, BUT not right now as we have too much going on. The support thats required with each kit is tremendous, people make it harder than it has to be.

Jake I thought at one point you were going to
 

qualify, train and support people in shops that would then be equipped to do IMS kits for owners. By the time they are doing their 3rd or 4th replacement, the questions should be down to almost zero. Maybe the business model of selling to all comers is not the best approach for your business as it takes up too much of your personal time.

I'm not familiar with your staff and their training, how many simultaneous IMSRs can your shop handle at once? How much do you personally have to touch each car? How much delegation are you able to do by now?

Just some thoughts, you don't have to answer them here.

Thank you for your input! Besides Jake, I think you are the only one who posted any mileage! Its good to hear you have put 18,000+ miles on your bearing and that everything seems to be good.

Well helps that those 3 are in the family -- so I keep tabs on them.

The 18K one is my daily driver. The replacement was done in the fall of '08
when we rebuilt the engine from a blown freeze plug.

I have a few more customer cars with IMSRs running around -- but
I don't get to see them (which I guess is a good thing :-)
So I can't comment on mileage.

I agree with both Jake and Mike Focke. Selling to the public would require
the potential to service a good bit of hand holding. We've done quite a
few now -- and we still had to call Charles a few months back when the
bolt snapped on us when we were pulling one. The average guy would be
in a panic -- we had to do some head scratching and scrambling
our selves, but it all worked out in the end -- just another feather in
the cap.

BTW, Jake does do training (of which the IMSR is probably
just a footnote :-), and I hope to attend soon, but our schedules
have not meshed yet.

cheers,

Mike

Thats tough to do. The fact is not every shop has a technician that can think outside the box well enough to be tasked with this job. The other challenge is having to deal with customer complaints when a shop we "recommend" or "certify" doesn't meet the customer's expectations. We become too responsible for everything and if I am going to be responsible then I am going to do the work under MY roof.

Usually after the first successful IMSR there are no questions, unless the situation involves a failed bearing where intervention is required that takes a bigger pair of balls to employ.

.
That part doesn't take any of my time, my staff can handle that without an issue, but their time can be more productively spent, for sure.

We can handle two procedures simultaneously, but I never do that because nothing here is about quantity anyway. I have the space to do 10 procedures at once if I wanted, but have no desire for that.

I carry out QA inspections at 6 critical points of a normal procedure. I also personally carry out the before and after chassis dyno evaluations for each IMSR equipped Porsche. I then drive each car at least one round trip to and from my facility (83 miles) and inspect for noises and leaks before the vehicle is shipped back home or released to the owner.

I could easily delegate 100% of the procedure and QA to my staff, but I refuse to since MY NAME is going in the door jamb of that car after the procedure. My staff is great, they learned this procedure along with me and they co-developed the changes to the procedure as well. The person who does your IMSR under my roof is the same person that assembles M96 engines.

Very good thoughts, for sure.

I have been planning some one day IMSR training courses at various parts of the country in 2011. After attending the procedure would be very easy to carry out. It all takes time. Lots of time.

I don't have a lot of miles on my LN IMS bearing (less than 1k) but I can attest to its very high quality of construction. Comparing to the original bearing the LN part is significantly beefier and turns smoother. At 83k my original bearing showed no outward signs of trouble. When I removed it and popped off one of the seals a lot of cooked smelling oil gushed out which I believe is a bad sign. Because I could do all the clutch and RMS seal work myself the added cost was about $600 to put in the better IMS bearing. That isn't an extravagant amount of money when you consider a set of tires will cost much more than that typically. FWIW this was the first time I've ever replaced a clutch on any car and overall the whole things was pretty easy. I like DIY though and enjoy working on cars.

Steve

L&N bearing mileage
 

I've only got ~1K miles on the bearing upgrade, having just bought it, so I don't have much to add except this - knowing that the car had the L&N bearing was a _major_ selling point for me. Great to have it.

I've got 10k on mine and it was done in Sept of 2009.
Chris

just passed the 1K mark. Mostly Track. Nothing to report. It still runs and that's just what I hope it keeps on doing.

I wonder how long before the first faked LN bearing replacement shows up in a used Boxster

Thats why we've serialized every vehicle that we have supplied a bearing for as well as every unit we have installed. I have a log book of VIN/ IMS door decal serial number/ IMS flange serial number since day one.

If someone is going to pull a fast one, they'll have to work pretty hard to do it with my name on it..

Unfortunately, that won't work for anyone who didn't use Flat6, like me. I plan on keeping my receipt from the shop that bought the bearing from LN as proof.

Thats another reason why people ship cars across the country for us to do the procedure here.. :-)

Keeping receipts is the key, cars have already been falsely stated in at least two ebay ads that I know of.

~2500 miles on my IMS retrofit purchased from Jake. They did indeed ask for my VIN for their records, did it myself so no door sill sticker.

Email Dean to request one. We'll cross reference it's number to your VIN on our records.

Will do, thanks Jake.