My IMSR is going in today!!! Woot!

I'm excited, but my savings account is crying.

I've got a few thousand miles on mine. When I pulled the original factory bearing at 70k, it came out with no problems, and the bearing spun smoothly. I sent it off to Charles at LN, and he confirmed that it was in good shape with a little bit of wear.

Did I have to replace mine? Probably not, but to me, this is a cheap insurance type of job.

The LN bearing is clearly of superior quality and far better engineered than the O.E. bearing (particularly by moving the sealing o-ring to the flange). While nothing is guaranteed in life, I'm pretty certain that my car has a FAR smaller chance of suffering an IMS failure now. Could it still blow up via other a different failure? Of course. Will it eventually wear out and need replacement or rebuilding? Of course.

I did it myself (single row) this past Winter at 22K miles and maybe have 2K on it since then, no issues and great peice of mind, did the clutch and CV boots at the same time. I don't remember sending my VIN to Charles at LN. I have the receipts but no plans on selling any time soon... The kit was very well done hgih quality parts. Thank You Jake, Charles and others for putting this together. :cheers:

Hello
 

Looking into buying a 2003 S TT that has 45,000 in Austin, TX.

I will have an inspection done before I purchase the car............question is, how much is it to do the retro fit? is there a place in Austin??


Thank you very much in advance.

ims retrofit in austin
 

I am willing and able to start performing this operation if the need is there. I am still studying wether I am going to recommend such a remedy when there is no symptoms present. If your bearing has failed and the engine is savable, I would gladly do the procedure, or If you are really set on the Idea and no one is going to talk you out of it, we can certainly go ahead with it. As I have not done this procedure yet, yours would be the first, but that should be no reason to fear. I have over 15 years experience in the trade(european repair). Firsts like this come up many times, and I often loose my ass, time wise, but never have had any problems that were not overcome with some careful thought and patience. I have a boxster of my own and am contemplating the idea of a retrofit, or possibly another idea to increase the bearings service life. I work at Daves Ultimate Automotive on south congress. see us at davesua.com. contact me if you want to get together for an inspection or talk about the retro. my name is sean. autodoctor911@gmail.com 512-576-3598

Hey Sean, check your email..............if I buy the Boxster I think I would go ahead and have it retrofit for some piece of mind. :cool:

Logical thinking, except in the case of these things, when the bearing fails, it does so without any warning, typically, and in the majority of cases where it has failed, the engine is not savable short of a complete tear down and re-build (and even that's if you're lucky and don't wind up with a giant paperweight).

"As I have not done this procedure yet..............."

Ummmmmm.....OK, but I think most would want someone who has "been there before......" as this procedure is pretty easy to screw up badly, as some have found out to their dismay………

experimental preventive repairs
 

I think that everyone is making way too big a deal about this problem. bring the car in for a checkout. If the car checks out good, and it is priced right, buy it. when it is time to do a clutch I might consider doing this kind of procedure. right now, I am still up in the air about it. I am talking to some of the other porsche techs out there in the other shops, and am going to contact the guys doing these experimental retrofits and weigh the benefits and the costs/risks. I will post with my conclusions at a later date. maybe there is still a more elegant solution out there. I have a few ideas that I will be discussing with those that are in the know.

if it feels good do it
 

I guess it comes down to opinions and speculation really. If it's going to make you feel better, do it. My only concern still, at this point is how long term is the fix. If Porsche is still having problems with this part after several redesigns, why should I expect a very small firm's R&D to have come up with a solution? just asking. I am still looking into it and will repost when I have gathered all the info.

Small and DEDICATED instead of large and dysfunctional. My company and LN Engineering neither function from anything more than drive and dedication to the brand.

I've owned a Porsche since age 12, had my first paying customer for an aircooled engine at age 13 and people have been trusting me every since.

With previous engines the issues were more difficult to address as many more designs were necessary. The M96 "fix" was fairly simple, we just had to use a superior bearing and bearing material to overcome the inadequacies.

The common denominator with all the "Porsche" revisions has been the COST of the bearing, because the accountants run the company today, not the engineers. In mass production the ultimate fix is the one that reduces risks of failure while providing the level of security thats being targeted.

Thats not the case with the silicon nitride bearing, it cost about 300% more than a factory conventional bearing would to fit the application. Build a few hundred thousand cars and see how many millions of dollars that bearing would cost in lost revenue. Fact is they'd rather net more money and take more risks than make the engine bulletproof. To auto makers some percentage of failure is acceptable, to me anything less than 100% perfection is unsatisfactory. We currently have a 100% effectiveness rating with retrofits, none have failed, not even those that were installed incorrectly.

In 10 years the story will be told and I fully intend to make the naysayers eat their words.

Chesty Puller (RIP) would be proud!

I also want to reiterate that a bearing on the way out will not let you know of its intent. Mine was replaced at 83k miles with not outward symptoms at all but upon examining the old bearing I could see where the original seal had failed allowing the bearing to fill with old crappy oil. I have no idea if and when it would fail but I'm glad I replaced it with the LN bearing as I understand this is an early stage of typical failure. I did the bearing replacement along with the clutch and flywheel myself and it was a straight forward job.

Steve

Yep, in those 10 years we'll probably experience some failures... I predict that higher mileage engines with the retrofit will begin to have other failures (like IMS tensioner paddle failure) that will get blamed on the IMS retrofit bearing and procedure.

This is already occurring with non retrofitted engines. The tensioner paddle snaps and the engine has ALL the symptoms of an IMSBF but the bearing is perfect upon teardown.

Crap will happen, we'll have to deal with it. Until then we'll enjoy a 100% effectiveness rating as long as we can.

I'm putting some funds aside now for my retrofit, even though my '02 S has but 18k miles and no need for a clutch. I'd much rather have the update and spend a few dollars now, than risk my engine being toast and big bucks sometime down the road. I've listened to Jake and Charles' comments and have already installed a number of their recommended M96 updates, so this one makes the most sense to follow through on. I won't be one that hits the 100k mile mark any time in the near future, but I also won't see my car sitting on a flatbed with a dead engine.

This statement even refers to the DIY set of components we have supplied for others to install in the instances where instructions were not followed and complications existed. None of those have failed either.

Correct.


This as well.

All totaled between retrofits and updated engines, the number is very close to 70. This number doesn't include the numbers from bearing kits that we sold to other shops and etc for installation elsewhere.

Absolutely. All VINs are logged and crossed with IMSR bearing flange serial numbers as well as door jamb decals.

Yes, the majority stay in touch as we grow more close relationships with many after we complete the retrofits.

We do make follow up calls every so often with the owners of the cars. That reminds me that its time to make another round of those calls...

good enough for me.
 

I guess that ws the Info I was looking for. If it was just a matter of Porsche cutting costs, then this fix should suffice. 70 cars is a pretty good number of testers out there, but not enough to be a guarantee it won't eventually happen. I wish we could get some input from someone inside Porsche, maybe in the racing development area on this.

this is some interesting info. granted only half the story, what about the 911?

seems jake has plenty of business to keep his great work afloat!

I agree sppmo there must be a lot of owners in NEED of Jake's work. finally you and me can agree on something!

the racing sources while good they may be may prove to be not the best on this issue. because as I understand it, the IMS issue is not suffered by the higher end motors (IE gt2, gt3, rs etc)

also the application of a racing motor is so far away from the application of the daily driver it also makes it moot.

if daily driver motors were torn down every few uses also, i am sure they would not have the same issues.

correct me if I am wrong on where the IMS problem exists.

I apologize, I thought you had drawn out the pertinent information. my mistake. no need to try to be insulting i am just agreeing and thanking you for your information you gave. :cheers:

Good luck. All I have interfaced with were sworn to secrecy and would mention nothing.

If anyone is looking for a false sense of security that the IMSR will create a bulletproof engine, you won't get it with me. The IMS just happens to be ONE OF the 21 modes of failure that we have documented, it is also one of the only ones that can be applied with the engine together and in the car, lots of others cannot.. Thats thanks to a lot of effort related to the development of the procedure that was not mainstream until March of 2009! Prior to that what we are doing now was considered "impossible" and it is still considered that way by Porsche.

A few months ago a board member here suffered an IMS failure while waiting for his slot on my schedule for the procedure.

This has happened to a couple of other people that have reservations due to the time in service that the bearings have and the procedure. To be quite frank, anyone who doubts the procedure should not do it at all, if you are that negative, stubborn and reserved then just await your destiny and hope for the best, whatever that may be. Don't even call me and waste the time of both of us.

We will not complete a process for a client if they do not trust our technology, knowledge and enthusiasm 100%. Any doubt at all is too much. I also do not make promises or give people false hope that the bearing will be the ultimate fix for everything related to the engine. Some people think this is the case, because they don't understand mechanical things that will always wear out, will always break and will never be predictable.

As we write our book on the M96 engine and its assembly we have found all sorts of conflicting sales numbers and dates, my co-author Dr. Smith has been researching that for quite some time.

The numbers that you'll never find are related to how many of those vehicles sold required serious mechanical intervention both while under warranty and out of warranty.

If you want to do the IMSR then we want to help you. If you don't believe in it, just do your own thing and enjoy your Porsche, but if you do become a statistic I wouldn't bother admitting that you were one of the "chosen few".

When its time, its time... Heart transplants don't make Humans immortal, and IMS retrofits don't make engines immortal-

The opposition can complain all they want about the procedure, because just the fact that the IMSR is an OPTION with the engine installed into the car is a miracle. Before the procedure was made public if your IMS bearing STARTED to fail you REQUIRED a new engine, there was no option.

After I saved just ONE engine with the procedure I had already been successful. We began ONLY doing "salvation work" with the retrofit, it was the DEMAND from the following that made the preventive procedure go viral.

Question?
 

IF I am going to purchase the Boxster that I am looking at (a 2003 tt, 45K miles "S") do I purchase the extended warranty or do I pay for the retro for the IMS??

Ideally I would do both, but economics does now allow me to do so................any reputable warranty company that will cover the failure if it happens?? are there any out there??

to retro or not
 

I am quite in agreement that it is an amazingly gracious means to fix a bearing that is known to be going out. salvation indeed. but what is the actual risk. everone here seems to talk like it is inevitable, but ehat are the actual percentages. one source that would definitely have this kind of info is the extended warranty company. they track repair costs on various vehicles.

The odds are clearly in your favor for the bearing NOT failing (do the math on the numbers of 98X and 99X cars sold, and the number of IMS failures- it's likely under 1%), but considering that the gamble has the potential to create a need for a motor swap, upgrading the bearing is cheap insurance.

If you study this forum and/or Renntech, you'll find several stories of people who paid for extended warranties and then got denied coverage for a new motor when the IMS failed, so I would hardly consider the warranty "insurance."

not covered?
 

how could a warranty not cover engine failure due to an internal bearing?

speaking from experience.....they will blame it on oil change interval ( too soon or too long), have you ever redlined the motor, one missing reciept for a oil change, not using the recommended oil, but for me after working through all of these issues....

was the fact they could not put a price on the bearing replacement proceedure because the bearing is not for sale from porsche and the proceedure is not listed in the cost/hour book they use.

after a 5 month delay, they finally paid to have my bearing replaced to save the motor. At one point they even tried to give me a used pull motor instead of paying for the retrofit.

in addition to the afore mentioned reasons,
was there a noise or other symptoms that were ignored until complete failure
any prior leaks that could suggest low oil level
is it wear and not a sudden catastrophe as many warranties do not cover wear

any song can be sung by an extended warranty compnay by using what is printed in their contract.

persistent communication with them over a declined repair can sometimes net an approval.

unfortunately most people just roll over.

warranties
 

from my experience the good warranty companies,i.e. ones that have been in business 10 years ore more, espepecially the ones that are attatched to major auto manufacturers e.g. G.M.P.P., Ford E.S.P., etc. would not pull such a thing. Now the warranties they sell you over the phone when you already have a car are probably bogus. the warranties from used car lots not associated with a major new car dealership may or may not have a good history. Allways checkout a warranty company before purchasing a warranty.

Frank M, instead of reading what is included, read what is excluded. Like I said, if you have ever red lined your motor, It is in the ECU. That one redline can be used to exclude you. Miss one scheduled oil change by more than 500 miles? Do you have every reciept for oil changes?
Have you done regularly scheduled matinance within 500 miles of the set number?

It is not the question if the bearing is covered or not......they will use every loophole they can.

I fought with them for 5 months, the cost was not enought to get a lawyer, but just enough to fight. I did not roll over, but after a while the mechanic that HAD TO TEAR DOWN the motor down to prove or disprove wants to get paid and the car out of the shop.

Thats another catch, Before they pay, they ask that the motor be torn down for inspection, If they end up not covering something, then they do not pay for the labor to tear it down or put it back.

That alone kind of gets you under thier thumb to accept what they pay.


The company I had was warrenty direct. It has been around for 30 years. They still screwed me. My claim for roughly 9,000 was worn down to around 5,000 and I was out of a car for 5 months.

Having some experience with warranty companies as I have been doing independent mechanical inspections for over 40 companies, 12 years now.
My advice is to get a reputable company as mentioned in a previous post.

For service go to the selling dealer that sold you the warranty as they have some pull due to their warranty sales. (notice I didn't say you bought it online. from a solicitor or through the mail)

do your maintenance right to the tee, do not modify your vehicle or use questionable products, use what is recommended by the manufacturer only.

As someone that runs a shop, let me give you another perspective on these warranties:

1. Many aftermarket insurers try to act like these repairs are medical insurance, they try tell the shop what you can expect to be paid, how long it should take, and even where to buy parts. Not in my shop…….

2. They want you to disassemble the engine, then wait for their “inspector” to show up, which takes anywhere from a couple of days to weeks. Shops typically have limited space, particularly inside. No owner wants his car sitting outside for weeks, particularly with the engine partially disassembled.

3. As others have noted, many of these companies try to weasel out of paying a claim for reasons totally unconnected to the problem. ECU/DME data, “competition tires”, “extensive modification” (aftermarket exhaust system), etc., etc….. Anything to keep from paying out…….

4. “Partial settlements” where they will pay for only part of the job, or only cover the parts. I actually had one tell me that they would only cover the time to swap out the bearing, not the labor to get at it. Right……..

5. The warranty companies often use poorly trained or totally incompetent personnel to review the claims. Often they know little, if anything, about the make or model involved, much less what is required to make the repair. Yet they are the individuals that determine if the claim will be paid and at what rate.

6. After market warranty companies are amongst the slowest payers out there, often trying to string the shop out for months on a claim, and sometimes go out of business while you are waiting, leaving the shop to file a legal claim with little to no chance of getting paid.

Like many other shops, we no longer deal with any warranty company, period. If the owner wants to file a claim, that fine by me, but the repair is cash, check or credit card only………

Jeff is correct. These people are evil. I bought the coverage the day I bought the car new. I used it once for a wheel bearing, and then it sat un-used for years.
My milage was fast approaching 75,000 which was the cut off. So I sent it to the shop and asked that they inspect everything and replace anything that was broken or worn.

The only thng that saved me was that they pissed off Jake and he fought tooth and nail to get stuff covered. (just out of principle I think)

However I think that experience soured him on warrenty companies. In the end I had ~5000K of work paid for and a car that drives like new.

At one point they even tried to say that I changed my oil too frequently as the manual for the car said every 10K.

Buy the coverage from the dealer, it will cost double but I dont think that they would try to screw you as quickly.

denied coverage
 

I have dealt with many warranty companies at dealerships and independent garages, and the only time they have even asked for maintenance records is when there is evidence of neglect such as excessive sludge. even then though, after some bickering the repairs were covered even if no real records could be produced. Of course If you bought the warranty somewhere other than from the dealer that sold you the car, you probably did get screwed right from the start no matter how many years they claim to have been in business. how can you know what business they've been in, unless you check them out. the hard part has been getting them to pay enough to cover quality parts and a decent labor amount to make good money recently as they have tried to cut costs by using used parts. not nearly as bad as with regular insurance coverage, especially state farm recently. yeah some of the inspectors don't know much, but that can be an advantage too. I still work with them, and have not had a problem getting paid once the approval is made.

best warranty
 

The best extended warranty plan that I have ever dealt with has been from Nissan, so if you can, find a porsche for sale at a Nissan used car lot, or even just go to a Nissan used car salesman and have him findyou one that you like at another dealer or at an auction. Dealers trade the cars with each other at wholesale so he can sell it to you for the same price you would pay wherever it was. then you would be able to purchase a kick ass warranty. I've worked on a mercedes with a Nissan warranty and they payed the dealer $2500 in repairs for fixing lifters, and maybe some oil leaks, which I know was probably BS. It probably just needed the plastic oil crossover tubes. then they misdiagnosed the ac and put a FEC(front electronic module) in it for $1100. The ac still wasn't working when he brought it to me. I checked it out, determined that the codes stored in the ac control unit were keeping the FEC from activating the compressor. the codes were caused by the fact that the compressor did not funtion when activated. I just had to think for myself and go outside th pinpint test boxes mercedes publishes and generate my own signal to the compressor to determine that it was the cause. I called the Nissan warranty and they approved a $1000 compressor job without even sending an inspector.

litmus test for warranty
 

one way to tell a crappy warranty is how they pay for the repair. any good warranty is going to give a one time credit card # with the approval or right after the repair, so patment is recieved before the vehicle is picked up. If a company tries to pay any other way they are being shady and probably not going to pay at all.

I do see one giant loophole on the ims failure in some warranties:
"internally lubricated parts"
Because Porsche had the bright(dumb) idea of using a sealed bearing this would possibly leave it open to someone's interpretation who looks at the part as being not internally lubricated, which would be correct, but I doubt anyone at these warranty companies has figured that out yet.

maybe not but an inspector should. :(

BTW when I had my shop I did not do any warranty work for customers. I would tell them, we will fix it and give you a detailed bill for the warranty company.
Most customers said "forget it, just fix it" and pay me when completed.

I guess I will role the dice..........
 

Thank you all for your replies. The company where I am buying my car in Austin is not a big dealership (i.e Porsche, etc....) it is from a used car company that sell high end imports for the most part. I never trust these types of dealerships to be honest.........so I will have a pre-purchase inspection done to the car prior to me buying the car. If everything checks out I will buy the car, if there are too many red flags I will walk away.

So I think what I will do if I buy the car is to forgo the extended warranty and take the car to an Austin Porsche mechanic to do the retrofit for the IMS............

Does that sound like good logic to you folks?? :eek:

Jake did IMS bearing (and clutch, flyweel, and RMS) on my daily driver '02S in Oct. '09 at 70k. He showed me that the factory bearing was in the early stages of failure, with some race looseness and evidence of oil leaking by. He believed the bearing, best case, would have lasted another 20k miles, which was well short of my projected ownership horizon. This reinforced my already strong feeling that this was money well spent - FOR ME.

Even if the bearing had been perfect, I'd still have felt that having this procedure done - particular by Flat6 - was well worth it. I'm not an overly conservative, "nervous Nellie" type who spends his life obsessing about everything bad that could happen. On the contrary, as a real estate developer I'm inherently a risk taker, but I know value and take calculated risks. At about ~$1500 over what a clutch job alone here in NJ would have cost me, having Jake do the IMSR was solid value.

Sure, I could have gotten it done closer to home, probably for around the same price, saving myself a 5 day vacation to GA, but experience has a lot value in my book. The best guy did my car, the possibility of an "oops!" was minimized, and I got a loaner Box to tour the Antebellum Trail while the job was being done. :cheers:

I'm now at 78k miles and enjoying my car more than ever partially because the retrofit gave me piece of mind.

It just amazes me that hundreds of people on this site with plenty of money in their cars won't think twice about blowing a couple thousand on a fancy stereo will in the next breath choke about spending less than that on an IMSR, or will instead spend a few thousand on a warranty of dubious value.

As they say, "You pays your money and you takes your chances."

Gary
FSI-0151

That sounds about right
 

That is probably what i am going to end up doing, except that I will have my retrofit done either in Houston or Austin..............so if anybody knows of a shop in either city (or Dallas) that has done the retrofit.........by all means, let me know!!

Thank you