read this and be warned about your motor

[mptoledo]

"m.... . "?
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Sorry couldn't resist guessing!!

[spine911]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

See, I get in trouble even if I keep my mouth shut..
Open the rear trunk of your Boxster and the issue is staring you right in the face.

It is Reverse Psychology - i bluffed ,and it "forced" you to give in a little of your tease....I just LOVE it when you start teasing us

(mptoledo), can i buy a numerical character to add to your guess??

[funkdefino]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Open the rear trunk of your Boxster and the issue is staring you right in the face.

A dead body?

[mptoledo]

Originally Posted by spine911

It is Reverse Psychology - i bluffed ,and it "forced" you to give in a little of your tease....I just LOVE it when you start teasing us

(mptoledo), can i buy a numerical character to add to your guess??

We could play hangman!!



Dead body? close, maybe dead dinosaurs(sort of).

[spine911]

Originally Posted by mptoledo

We could play hangman!!



Dead body? close, maybe dead dinosaurs(sort of).

Sounds Fun!

Dead body?......Dead dinosaurs?..... or, Fossilized "dead dinosaur" bones for Oil????

[mptoledo]

Originally Posted by spine911

Sounds Fun!

Dead body?......Dead dinosaurs?..... or, Fossilized "dead dinosaur" bones for Oil????

Actually I think its krill, plankton and algae, if I remember my biology correctly.

[Lil bastard]

The basic reasons lifters stick, or their valves do, is that either 'gunk' clogs the valves or varnish accumulates on the lifter body, oil feed, or valve.

There are a few tried and true methods of cleaning/correcting these conditions, and I want to convey these, but in our litigation-happy culture, I simply cannot tell you what they are...

OK.. I will :

You can use a qt. of kerosene in your oil, or any of a number of additives such as SeaFoam, Lucas or Marvel Mystery Oil or you can substitute a qt. of ATF for a qt. of oil.

I do not recommend the first because of kerosene's effect of stripping the oil coating from the internals, creating additional wear while it aids the lifters.

Oil additives have varying formulas and achieve varying results, but no big downside to their use.

ATF has the benefit of first being a lubricant, but unlike motor oil, has a disproportionate amount of detergents in it's formulation, specifically to keep the valves of an auto trans clean, and last a long time in what is essentially a 'closed system'.

This is not a snake oil treatment, it is a tried and true method used by many enthusiasts and mechanics since hydraulic lifters were first introduced by Pierce-Arrow in the 1930's, just search the web and see how many times this is recommended as a cure, albeit not a cure-all.

Any of the additives mentioned above will dissolve varnishes and open restricted valves and oil galleries.

There are a couple of caveats though. It is best to add them to fresh oil and operate the engine for no more than 30 min. (after fully warmed) and not place the engine under extreme loading, though you don't want 30 min. idle time either.

Secondly, immediately change the oil and filter afterward, draining it while still very warm (not HOT) before the gunk can fall out of suspension and varnishes redeposit on the internals.

Then, it would be prudent to do a short service interval of the 'new' oil of say 500 - 1000 mi. to insure that all of the additive and any remaining varnish and gunk is expelled from the motor.

I'm not trying to take the bread from Jake or Charles mouths, and I think it's great that they claim to have produced a superior lifter. But, I've never seen a hydraulic lifter that was immune to the issues suffered by the oem ones (though several may have greater longevity before succumbing). Nor do I believe we have any longterm 'fleet' data on their new device upon which to make absolute claims.

Then there are those who are budget restricted from implementing the flat6 solution and this method will offer them some relief, even if it may not be 'as good', it's still better than doing nothing, at a price many more can afford. And if performed every 25k mi. or so, should at least stave off the worst of it for many more miles than currently experienced.

[disclaimer] Do your research and adopt this fix on your own accord (placed here so that my wife and I may actually get to retire someday... that is unless HulaBwana finds another way of taking it away from us... )

[spine911]

You are no fun Mr. Lil bastard........mptoledo and myself are trying to play a little hangman here.

Kidding aside, i have to agree on the ATF method...Ive seen this used by my mechanic especially when "breaking in" newly rebuilt engines .

[Jake Raby]

I have had zero success with using the old fashioned Marvel mystery oil/ Kerosene/ tricks that work with other engines when applied to the M96.

The lifters have very small internal passages and when they become clogged the solvent/etc will not attack the gunk well enough to remove it.. If it does it'll more than likely just go to another place within the same lifter, or the next one down stream..

I have had success pulling lifters, taking them apart and cleaning them, BUT that takes a lot of time.. You end up paying as much in labor as the cost of new lifters.

if anyone reads this that plans on doing the lifter swaps themselves, you might want to think twice about buying the Porsche lifters... The Febi replacement units are much nicer.

We ended up buying new lifters and having new internals made for them, these don't clog nearly as bad(if ever) due to their design and clearances.. And we can apply this technology to used lifters and resurface them if money is a concern. (as long as the lifter isn't damaged.)

The same goes for timing chains... Porsche designed them "linkless" so they can't be changed without full tear down.. We put a stop to that!

[mptoledo]

Originally Posted by spine911

You are no fun Mr. Lil bastard........mptoledo and myself are trying to play a little hangman here.

Kidding aside, i have to agree on the ATF method...Ive seen this used by my mechanic especially when "breaking in" newly rebuilt engines .

Yeah, what he said ^.

Hey what is atf? I am sure I got some serious sludge being 60k miles and the previous owner used " M.... 1 " ( I gave you your number) Anybody got a linky?

[spine911]

Originally Posted by mptoledo

Hey what is atf? I am sure I got some serious sludge being 60k miles and the previous owner used "

It is just your regular Automatic Transmission Fluid...Ive seen my mechanic use this method several times after complete engine work; ATF is mixed with the engine oil to aid in faster lubrication upon initial start-up, and it also helps clean up the engine's internal parts.

The whole procedure is much like how Mr. Lil bastard described but my mechanic uses a 50/50 (ATF/Engine oil) mix.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by spine911

...The whole procedure is much like how Mr. Lil bastard described but my mechanic uses a 50/50 (ATF/Engine oil) mix.

HEY!...

Mr. Lil bastard is my father's name... R.I.P.

Just call me L.b.

[23109VC]

so I can have my motor inspected and IF they hear/suspect the IMS is failing, I can fix it for $700 and avoid a blown motor??

why not just then have the IMS looked/at replaced every 30k miles or 50k as self insurance.. for those of us w/out extended warranties.... might be a good compromise....

can a Porsche dealer detect this with a "scope" like Jake can, or is this some "special" skill that only he and a select few Porsche m echanics can detect?

[mptoledo]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

HEY!...

Mr. Lil bastard is my father's name... R.I.P.

Just call me L.b.

My condolences, but don't you assume the family name after your father is deceased? You know like Junior then becomes senior, and Ie. LiL Bast II becomes LiL Bast I ect.... So doens't that make you the one and only LiL Bastard?


RE: spine. Thanks, I finally googled "STuck lifters" and found a plethora of info and "home" remedies. As I hear no ticking or other noises, I still might try sea foam. The only problem I just spent a small fortune on castrol and filter. LiL bastard and much of the googling I did suggest changing your oil after and then again shortly down the road. So i may just save up for the lifter repair/replace and maybe an IMS replace. Who know!!

[Jake Raby]

Originally Posted by 23109VC

so I can have my motor inspected and IF they hear/suspect the IMS is failing, I can fix it for $700 and avoid a blown motor??

why not just then have the IMS looked/at replaced every 30k miles or 50k as self insurance.. for those of us w/out extended warranties.... might be a good compromise....

can a Porsche dealer detect this with a "scope" like Jake can, or is this some "special" skill that only he and a select few Porsche m echanics can detect?

The problem with the dealership is the techs there are parts changers in most cases.. Few of them have the ability to intervene and even if they could they have rules governingwhat tactics can be used tocorrect the issues. If their isn't a TSB that directs them to an issue, or there isn't a scheduled procedure, the work doesn't get done. Here we have no rules. Others like us play the game the same way

Once the IMS bearing is replaced with a silicon nitride hybrid bearing retrofit bearing it should be good for the remainder of the engines life.

We have bought bearing analyzing equipment and have been testing every car we see to gain data concerning good and bad bearings so the test equipment can be rented to be used by others with accurate parameters for "good and bad" bearings... Until then it'll require a traied ear and a stethoscope to detect the issues.

This work isn't that difficult and we are not the only people who can do it.. I have literally been building engines since the age of 8 and had my first paying customer for an engine build at 13... I live, breathe and sleep engines and always have, so over time I have learned to pay attention to the engine and allow it to tell me what ailments it may have... What you don't need is a person/shop that only follows the directives set forth by a book!

So long story short, the 60K service should have another 1/2 page added to its list of items to be checked.

BTW- The ATF and etc is not really good for the vario cam solenoids and related parts within these engines. I do not recommend using these old school methods with the M96 engine. As we always say:
"The quickest way to spend a thousand dollars is by trying to save one"

[Boxtaboy]

Jake, do you offer any sort of limited warranty on any of your upgrades and/or engine work? Just reading one of the passages below, it says once your upgraded bearing is installed, it "should be good for the remainder of the engines life." What happens if for any crazy reason, it fails a few months down the road?

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The problem with the dealership is the techs there are parts changers in most cases.. Few of them have the ability to intervene and even if they could they have rules governingwhat tactics can be used tocorrect the issues. If their isn't a TSB that directs them to an issue, or there isn't a scheduled procedure, the work doesn't get done. Here we have no rules. Others like us play the game the same way

Once the IMS bearing is replaced with a silicon nitride hybrid bearing retrofit bearing it should be good for the remainder of the engines life.

We have bought bearing analyzing equipment and have been testing every car we see to gain data concerning good and bad bearings so the test equipment can be rented to be used by others with accurate parameters for "good and bad" bearings... Until then it'll require a traied ear and a stethoscope to detect the issues.

This work isn't that difficult and we are not the only people who can do it.. I have literally been building engines since the age of 8 and had my first paying customer for an engine build at 13... I live, breathe and sleep engines and always have, so over time I have learned to pay attention to the engine and allow it to tell me what ailments it may have... What you don't need is a person/shop that only follows the directives set forth by a book!

So long story short, the 60K service should have another 1/2 page added to its list of items to be checked.

BTW- The ATF and etc is not really good for the vario cam solenoids and related parts within these engines. I do not recommend using these old school methods with the M96 engine. As we always say:
"The quickest way to spend a thousand dollars is by trying to save one"

[Brucelee]

Jake,

You may have covered this but, why do you supposed the lifters are sticking? Is this a design issue with the engine. Can lubrication in any way deal with this?

[941MXVET]

Well I read through the thread, and found it interesting and informative as usual. It dose not surprise me that there are non-catastrophic issues with the valve train at 60k. As well, the cost associated with the repairs dose not seam prohibitive. We just need to discuss having Jake or Charles relocate their shops' out west!


On another note, I've used Swepco's 501 oil improver to clean out other engines I own, but haven't used it in the Boxster.

[tnoice]

Jake,
I am just curious, have any of the motors that you have worked on had any sort of catastrophic failure like factory porsche motors have experienced? Are there any other weak points in the motor that have not been discussed throughly?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

BTW- The ATF and etc is not really good for the vario cam solenoids and related parts within these engines. I do not recommend using these old school methods with the M96 engine. As we always say:
"The quickest way to spend a thousand dollars is by trying to save one"

I'm no expert, but something about dumping several quarts of ATF fluid into the engine just seems like a bad idea to me. There have been threads upon threads about which oil is best blah blah blah, mobil 1 is bad, bla blah blah, but now we're talking about putting ATF fluid and kerosene in our engines!? Jake, if this "sticky lifter" issue afflicts nearly all M96 engines why haven't we seen more posts/discussions on this topic? Do the 996 engines have the same issue with the lifters? Is it just me, or does this seem to coming out of left field?