Brakes - stay stock or upgrade?

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by 23109VC

how many of you guys replace the caliper bolts when you do brakes???

i've done brakes on a lot of cars and never replaced this stuff... is this just BS to sell parts or do they really stretch/wear?

They really stretch. The large amount of torque spec'd - 63 Ft. Lbs. is fairly close to the limit of the Fastener material's elasticity. Replacing them is more a precautionary note, but still, it is possible they could fail if reused. It doesn't happen very often at all so reusing them at least once isn't that big a deal.

Reusing them repeatedly could cause an issue, but it's more likely the fastener, especially if slightly corroded, would break when trying to remove it rather than failing in use, though that too is possible. Then you're drilling and tapping or using an insert. The likelyhood of failure in a reused bolt is higher than one used only once.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

It's a falacy that more power requires bigger brakes.

Bleh! I took my Boxster S for a spirited drive this weekend and the brakes performed wonderfully. I could not imagine though having the weak brakes from my Honduh CRX on the Boxster. There is NO WAY I could have enjoyed the car as much with weak brakes like that. It's all about balance - matching the engine performance with appropriate suspension tuning and braking performance. With my Boxster those performance limits are pretty high and I need brakes to match them. I guess I could have driven it okay with the weak CRX brakes, but I would have had to use half of the available power.

Likewise my weak CRX brakes are okay for that car as it's barely even pushing 100 HP and only has to stop 1850 lbs, but even then they are maybe marginal. I already have a full suspension in the CRX (roll cage, bracing, torsion bars, springs, adjustable shocks, etc.). If I added 200 more horsepower, no weight, and left the brakes the same I'd have to throttle it back and either still drive it the same as I do now or end up dead from overrunning the brakes....

Just for grins... here's my CRX daily driver:



Kirk

[Lil bastard]

It's about weight, or more specifically momentum. Adding power does increase momentum, but only if you use the right foot. A 3000 lb. car with X brake setup will stop in X feet from X Speed. If that same car gets a more powerful engine, it will get to X speed faster than before, but the rest of the variables remain the same.

If tracking the car, where the brakes are applied more fully, and frequently, the larger brakes are an improvement because they shed heat faster and so don't fade as soon. But on the street, where's there's rarely seconds between brake applications, enough time exists between braking for the brakes to cool and not fade.

Don't forget, the difference in stopping distance between the 'S' brakes and Base brakes is only 4' @ 60MPH. Could that 4' make the difference in some rare circumstance? Of course. But that's an endless debate, what if the needed improvement was 5'? Than neither brake setup would have an advantage over the other (for street).

[944boy]

Also remember, the biggest factor in braking is tires, not the brakes. Braking performance is quoted with stock tires and the base model has narrow tiny front tires compared to the 'S'. In my 987 the ABS activates rather quickly because the 205 Conti's have very little grip compared to an 235 Azenis. I could put on much bigger brakes but without better tires or less weight it's not going to stop any quicker.

[heyjae]

I can only speak for the S since that is what I have, but on the street the biggest improvement to braking will be tires. The stock brakes are more than adequate to bring you to a stop and will easily overwhelm the gripping ability of the tires. Whether you go with the OEM pad or aftermarket pad is really more about brake dust and cost. I've used OEM and street compounds from Pagid, Hawk, PBR (cheap) and they all work great on the street with differences in dust and initial bite mainly. I liked the Hawk best all around. (I thought it was the Performance Friction at first, but realized I used them as a track pad. I like Pagids better for the track.)

With rotors, I've used OEM and Zimmerman. The only difference is the coating on the hat for the Zimmerman sucks, so you'll want to to recoat it with hi temp paint unless you don't mind rust. Currently, I'm using Zimmerman rotors, which are cross drilled since I have an S. They are about 2-3 years old with about 20 track days. They've held up really well.

The equation is very different on the track. It's about repeated stopping ability. That's where bigger rotors, cross drilling/slotting, hi temp brake fluid, exotic pads, bigger brakes, etc. become more important to dissipate heat to prevent fade and fluid boiling and maintaining consistency. Adding bigger/grippier tires stresses brakes and so does adding horsepower (because you'll be entering the braking zone faster) and, frankly, just being a better driver (because you'll be entering the braking zone faster .

That said, I'm still using the OEM brakes with Zimmerman OEM placement rotors, ATE fluid and Pagid RS-14 pads (full race compound) with great success. Generally, I "catch up" to others on braking. I was at Buttonwillow yesterday and the only cars out braking me were a GT3 RS with PCCB and a Radical. This was coming from a long straight downshifting from 5th (127 mph) to 2nd (45 mph) (of course they were entering much faster than me). My brakes were solid all day even with doubled up sessions of 40-50 minutes at a time.

I will switch to 2 piece rotors when I need to replace my current rotors--for lower weight mainly and better heat dissipation. I'll keep the existing calipers. If I did an engine swap and picked up another 80 HP, I would likely go with bigger brakes.

I guess my point is that Porsche brakes are fantastic and the mid-engine layout of the Boxster seems to accentuate it further. Spend the money on suspension if you want to go faster. BTW, I was only .3 seconds off the GT3 RS on a track layout that favored high HP cars.

[23109VC]

couple of quick questions

I've priced full OEM parts on pelican for my boxster brakes vs. zimmerman and "oem supplier" textar pads.

all OEM genuine porsche = $950
zimmerman + textar = $750

I also ordered 4 brakes sensors, a motive bleeder, and fluid. essentially it's a $200 savings to get zimmerman rotors and textar pads.

for street driving - am I goign to notice any difference in these two options in terms of stopping power?

also - if I get the zimmerman rotors and want to PAINT the hats - do I just get the caliper paint / hi temp stuff at the local pep boys? do you brush it on or get spray and mask off the braking surfaces? do you guys use a gray color, black? what??

i don't mind painting 4 hats to save $200. i can spray them and let them dry overnight, then install the following day.

the dealer wants $1600 to do it for me. they offered me 10% off..so say about $1450 parts+ labor. all OEM stuff.

if I did all OEM parts, i'd be at $1000. 450 labor seems kind of high. if they woudl come down to 1200 i might bite and just let them do it... half of me wants to do it for teh "Fun" and half of me doesn't want to spend the time or get dirty.

i have to take the car in anyway for the vacuum leak...

they also do tires/alignments while it's there and I need that too. they are goin to get me bad this time.. i need that too...

[heyjae]

I doubt you'll notice the difference in Zimmerman rotors and Textar pads, since they are the OEM suppliers.

As for the rotor paint, I believe spray caliper paint or high temp spray paint from your local auto parts store will work. I believe the factory finish is light gray. Just be sure to mask off the rotor surface and especially the bolt holes.

Where in California are you?

[23109VC]

I'm in so cal - Temecula area. 45 min north of San Diego off I-15.

[23109VC]

I priced the cost on replacing pads/rotors using only genuine porsche parts.

wow...it's almost $1000 in parts.

rotors are $140 each about. and pad sets are $140 front and $132/rear.
that's about $832. then i need to buy a bleeder and fluid.

so basically i'm looking at almost $1000 in parts to get geniuine porsche stuff.

I found a local independent Porsche shop (they only work on Porsche) that will do this job for $1300. all OEM genuine porsche parts, plus flushing the fluid. honestly, if i'm going to use OEM parts, I'd just assume pay the $300 and have them do it.

the only way to really make this a "cheap" job is to go with generic parts, like Zimmerman rotors (whichI then have to paint), and generic pads. I could probably get the ocst of parts down a few hundred bucks going generic.

say $500-600

so $500-600 with generic rotors/pads and do it myself
$900-1000 genuine porsche parts, do it myself
$1300 pay the mechanic to do it and get genuine parts.

I'm all about doing it myself, but only if I'm gonna save a lot of money. if the difference is $300, i'll pay a pro.

if I can buy generic parts and get the exact same pedal/braking feel as genuine porsche parts, do it myself and save $600, then i'd be interested in doing it myself.

what is the consensus...is there really a benefit to using genuine porsche parts? or are the brakes the same? I don't like the hassle of having to paint some generic brake rotor to avoid it rusting...it sounds lke a PITA.

is $1300 for a pro to put on OEM genuine porsche parts a good deal or a rip?

am I stupid to want to pay for OEM genuine porsche stuff and would I never know the difference in how the car drives if I use generic parts?

will generic parts last as well?

I will not track the car. spiritied street driving is all I'll do with it. i'll drive 5k/year at most.

I don't mind doing the work mysefl - but it's not something i'm looking forward to. I'd much rather pay someone else to do it as long as the price is reasonable. if it makes sense to go with OEM stuff, i'll just pay the extra few hundred and have a pro do it. BUT, if buying OEM genuine porsche parts is a COMPLETE waste of money, then I could save quite a bit by getting geneic parts and doing it myself.

what benefit is there to using genuine porsche parts?
is it no better than zimmerman rotors and pagid pads but with a designer label so I pay a premium, or is it really a better part that will work better/last longer/etc?

i don't mind paying for quality - but i don't want to pay for a label.

[ekam]

Dude, listen.

You can find cheaper OEM rotors & pads here.

http://e-partssales.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=P&Category_Code=98625brakes

$627 for front & rear rotors and pads, plus shipping of course.

[23109VC]

ekam-

thanks. wow. that is a lot cheaper.

so now I can buy the OEM stuff for about $650 plus shipping.

$650 vs $1300. hmmmmmmmmm. now that's not a very hard one is it....

[Paul]

Here's another Porsche dealer that sells parts almost at cost:

http://www.****************************************************.com/team.php?tid=1

email or call Jeff Clark with your parts list.

[23109VC]

i ended up payin to get it done.

call me lazy.

guy did new pads/sensors all the way around, and only needed new front rotors. excpet i'm not 100% sure they were OEM rotors. they are stamped made in germany, but he hats are not dark like the rears..they are more the same color as the rotor surface and now that they got wet they are slightly rusting.

car stops and works great. guy also did ATE blue fluid and price was fair.

i had to take the car in for a bad vacuum leak so figured i might as well get it done all at once.

[MarkOfZero]

Since this thread has been talking about brake work and rotor hat rust, I thought this would be an appropriate question:

My rotor hats are rusty
Can someone suggest the best/easiest method to remove the rust before I paint them?

Thanks,
Mark

[ekam]

Use a wire brush and tons of elbow grease. You can never get rid of it 100%, so just spray over them.

[Steve Tinker]

On my original rusting rotor top hats (I've just recently installed new ones), I kept the rotors on the car & used a strip of emery cloth looped over the hat section, while turning the hub - & saving my knuckles. That removed 90% of the rust, I then finished the job with wet & dry before painting with heat proof engine enamel - no primer required.
Of course, if you want to do a proper job, you need to remove the rotors completely because the rust on the inside is 10 times as bad as what you can see - its that hidden rust that drops and stains the inside of the wheels every time you wash the car....

[23109VC]

I'm the OP. since that original post, I've done:

all new front brakes - pads/rotors. on the rears I managed to keep my stock rotors and do only new pads. flushed the fluid, all new sensors and bolts.

My rotor hats on the fronts rusted pretty badly as I didn't use rotors that had painted hats, so when I painted my brake calipers, I sanded off the rust and painted the hats with a silver engine paint...they turned out nicely.

as to my original idea of do I need to upgrade to bette brakes, like race pads, or drilled/slotted rotors..

geeez, this car stops SO hard on just these stock brakes, I don' thave ANY need for better brakes. I can haul my car down to a halt in nothing flat. Braking is NOT a weak point on this car with just stock stuff.

maybe if i was tracking the car hard i'd want to upgrade...but for spirited street driving, stock is PLENTY!!