Brake job... - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

Porschekid · 03-16-2007, 06:47 AM

My rotors are starting to wear a little thin and it may be time to replace them before inspection. I got a quote of $480 for 4 crossdrilled zinc-plated Zimmermen rotors and Pagid brake pads w/ new sensors. Does this sound like a good deal? Should changing the brakes be easy enough for someone who is technically minded with simple tools and a Bentley car manual? I've swapped the pads/rotors on my old Nissan Altima. I also have some Super Blue brake fluid laying around... should I replace my fluid with this stuff while i'm at it? I would assume bleeding the brake lines is a 2-man job but i've never done it before.

Any help is appreciated.

tgarnoldo · 03-16-2007, 07:56 AM

It is a relatively easy job, you just need to take your time and read the manual. Clean the Caliper bolts threads before reinstalling ann make sure you torque everything to the factory specs with a good torque wrench. As for bleeding the brakes, I find that the best way is with 2 people. And always, repeat always use brake fluid form a fresh sealed can. If the stuff you have laying around is opened... dispose of it...

Arnie

derb · 03-16-2007, 08:59 AM

Don't forget to replace the caliper bolts. Porsche recommends that they be replaced if they are removed. Part 999.067.041.09 and they should be around $3 each, you need 8. Use a M12x1.5 thread chaser to clean the threads on the wheel carriers. Torque to 63 ft-lbs.
Also, the spring clip and retainer pins need to be replaced- again, Porsche recommends it. The repair kit is the same for front and rear- 996.352.959.01. You need two kits and they are around $50 each.
Double check those part numbers for your model year.

Your quote of 480 for rotors, pads and sensors seems reasonable.

Regards,
derb

FrayAdjacent · 03-16-2007, 11:46 AM

That price doesn't sound bad if it's for FOUR rotors, and all the pads and sensors. If that is for all that INSTALLED, IMHO, that's a GREAT price.

DIY is not very difficult for brakes... it's just turning some bolts and screws. Get a bottle of PB Blaster ahead of time. It helps on bolts that need a little 'encouragement'.

I haven't heard of replacing the bolts, but it can't hurt. You could also skip the wear sensors if your current ones are not worn or have broken leads. There's absolutely no need to swap them if they are still good. (and they're like $13 each... saves you $50 right there!)

BLEEDING:

If you haven't done it, it's a good idea. You won't really be 'bleeding' the brakes, you'll be 'flushing' the system. Check your reservoir, if it's offwhite/brownish fluid, then get some of the blue fluid. That way when you're pumping the fluid out, you'll know when you've got completely new fluid.

Get a set of Speed Bleeders, too, and you can technically do the job yourself.

Start with the passenger rear wheel (furthest from the reservoir), open the bleed screw, use some small hose and a jar to catch the old fluid, and pump it while frequently topping off the reservoir with new fluid. Repeat until it's all new fluid coming out. Close up the bleed screw, and move to the driver's rear wheel. Then the front passenger and front driver's wheel.

Make sure you keep the reservoir filled!! If it drops and you suck air into the system, THEN you will be 'bleeding' the brakes.

It's really simple, but somewhat timeconsuming. I've read that it's recommended to flush your brake fluid every 3 years or so.

Also be careful, brake fluid will DESTROY paint!!

Porschekid · 03-16-2007, 12:07 PM

Thanks for the tips. So basically for the fluid I should open the screw and pump the brakes while someone else keeps topping off the fluid (doing each wheel in the order you described) and try to watch until the blue fluid comes out? As long as the reservoir doesn't go dry I won't have to bleed?

MNBoxster · 03-16-2007, 01:07 PM

Hi,

With ABS, all cars should be power bled. That means you need a power bleeder - http://www.motiveproducts.com/02bleeders.html which actually makes it a one-man job and reduces the opportunities to spill Brake Fluid.

You do need to replace the Caliper Mounting Bolts as these fasteners are made to stretch when initially torqued to insure they don't back-out (very Bad), but they only stretch once. Porsche doesn't recommend replacing bolts except in a very few instances and this is one of them, it's best to take heed - reusing them poses a high risk of shearing one off as you torque it to 63 ft.lbs., that'll cost a whole lot more than the cost of new bolts.

ATE makes their Super Brake Fluid in 2 contrasting colors - Gold and Blue, exact same stuff, just a different color. Use the color which contrasts with the one you already have. When you see the new color appear, you've purged all the old fluid - plan on 2 Litres of the stuff for a complete job and be sure to bleed the Clutch as well to remove all the old fluid so as not to contaminate the new - the Clutch and Brakes share the same Fluid Reservoir, so the fluid will mix. You need to replace the fluid every 2 years because it gets dirty and absorbs moisture (as much as 8% in 2 years) which will corrode the system and reduce Braking and Clutch efficiency.

Replace the Brake Hardware as good insurance that you won't have a Pad hang up and hasten both it's and the Rotors wear. Cheap insurance.

Also, I would not recommend the Cross-drilled Rotors. These cannot be machined, are prone to cracking and will wear the pads much more quickly (especially the OEM Pagids) with only a very mild (unnoticeable) increase in braking efficiency. You don't need this extra efficiency, especially at the higher cost and shortened interval of maintenance. These are for the Track where cost and service intervals mean nothing - for the street thay are pure aesthetic.

If you get the OEM Ventilated rotors, I always like to have these balanced. I have found that they are often very inexact and can induce some wheel shimmy. Any competant machine shop will balance them for about $5 usually while you wait.

Otherwise, the procedure is very straightforward and you can save a bundle doing it yourself.

Well, I've just added about $150 to your Brake Job, but it's the right way to do it. Your Brakes are the most important system on the Car don't scrimp here - You can't have the GO without the Whoa!...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

chaudanova · 03-18-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

With ABS, all cars should be power bled. That means you need a power bleeder - http://www.motiveproducts.com/02bleeders.html which actually makes it a one-man job and reduces the opportunities to spill Brake Fluid.

You do need to replace the Caliper Mounting Bolts as these fasteners are made to stretch when initially torqued to insure they don't back-out (very Bad), but they only stretch once. Porsche doesn't recommend replacing bolts except in a very few instances and this is one of them, it's best to take heed - reusing them poses a high risk of shearing one off as you torque it to 63 ft.lbs., that'll cost a whole lot more than the cost of new bolts.

ATE makes their Super Brake Fluid in 2 contrasting colors - Gold and Blue, exact same stuff, just a different color. Use the color which contrasts with the one you already have. When you see the new color appear, you've purged all the old fluid - plan on 2 Litres of the stuff for a complete job and be sure to bleed the Clutch as well to remove all the old fluid so as not to contaminate the new - the Clutch and Brakes share the same Fluid Reservoir, so the fluid will mix. You need to replace the fluid every 2 years because it gets dirty and absorbs moisture (as much as 8% in 2 years) which will corrode the system and reduce Braking and Clutch efficiency.

Replace the Brake Hardware as good insurance that you won't have a Pad hang up and hasten both it's and the Rotors wear. Cheap insurance.

Also, I would not recommend the Cross-drilled Rotors. These cannot be machined, are prone to cracking and will wear the pads much more quickly (especially the OEM Pagids) with only a very mild (unnoticeable) increase in braking efficiency. You don't need this extra efficiency, especially at the higher cost and shortened interval of maintenance. These are for the Track where cost and service intervals mean nothing - for the street thay are pure aesthetic.

If you get the OEM Ventilated rotors, I always like to have these balanced. I have found that they are often very inexact and can induce some wheel shimmy. Any competant machine shop will balance them for about $5 usually while you wait.

Otherwise, the procedure is very straightforward and you can save a bundle doing it yourself.

Well, I've just added about $150 to your Brake Job, but it's the right way to do it. Your Brakes are the most important system on the Car don't scrimp here - You can't have the GO without the Whoa!...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Hey Jim, seems like there are several models listed there for the powerbleeders that would work for Porsches. Is there a particular model you would suggest from personal experience?

Thanks in advance...

MNBoxster · 03-18-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaudanova

Hey Jim, seems like there are several models listed there for the powerbleeders that would work for Porsches. Is there a particular model you would suggest from personal experience?

Thanks in advance...

Hi,

Well, they pretty much all do the same thing. Years ago, I used a product called the EZ-Bleed. This was a pressure bottle that you put the brake fluid into and screwed a Top to the Master Cylinder. The EZ-Bleed was pressurised by hooking it up to a Tire and the compressed air in the Tire provided the pressure to bleed the Brakes. It worked well, but having to provide an external supply of air (the Tire) was cumbersome.

About 5 yrs. ago, Motive came out with their self-contained Power Bleeder. This had the advantage of a pump on the Pressure Bottle so no external supply of air was necessary. I've had one for 5 yrs., used it on every car I own with excellent results.

Both the EZ-Bleed and the Motive make for true one-man Brake Bleeding.

About 10 yrs. ago, a product called the Mity-Vac was introduced. This was a hand-held, hand-operated vacuum pump. It differed in that instead of forcing the brake fluid through the system under pressure, you hooked this up the the Bleeder Valve on the Caliper or Drum itself and used vacuum pressure to draw the fluid through the system. I have one, but use it primarily to check vacuum solenoids, distributer Vac Advances and such because as a Brake Bleeder, it leaves much to be desired. First, it has no reservoir from which to draw the Brake Fluid - only the reservoir on the Master Cylinder. This means that you must have 2 people to use it, either that, or you're constantly crawling from beneath the car to keep the Master Cylinder topped up, because if you don't, you'll draw air through the system. Also, you had to purchase a separate Brake Bleed attachment which caught the fluid you were drawing out. Finally, once you opened the Bleeder Valve, it often allowed air to pass by the threads of the Bleeder Valve seriously reducing the vacuum pressure available to draw the fluid.

As I stated, with ABS, you need a certain amount of pressure to pass the fluid past the various ABS valves and trying with the traditional pedal pumping method puts serious strain on the Master Cylinder and I've seen several of these fail shortly after this method was used. On the '03 up cars, you actually should have a PST2 to pre-open the ABS Valves for proper bleeding.

There are other makes of Bleeders out there, but they are variations of the ones I've already described. Of all the ones I've used, I believe that the Motive Power Bleeder is the best tool, and the most Bang for the buck. It's well made, has an ample fluid reservoir, has a Pressure Gauge to insure that you don't over pressure your braking system - no more than 19PSI for proper Master Cylinder Health, is well made and reasonably priced. This is the one I use and recommend...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

chaudanova · 03-18-2007, 10:53 PM

Hi Jim, I took a look on the site that you linked for the Motive Power bleeders, and there is the European Power Bleeder, and the Black label European Power bleeder, Magnum, PRO, and universal power bleeders that I saw would work for Porsches. Any advice or suggestions from among these models all by Motive?

Thanks!

MNBoxster · 03-18-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chaudanova

Hi Jim, I took a look on the site that you linked for the Motive Power bleeders, and there is the European Power Bleeder, and the Black label European Power bleeder, Magnum, PRO, and universal power bleeders that I saw would work for Porsches. Any advice or suggestions from among these models all by Motive?

Thanks!

Hi,

Well they're all basically the same, some come with multiple attachments which you really don't need if you have only 1 car to use it on. When I bought mine, they just had the one model and you got the adapter suited for your car.

But, the only real fault I find with the Motive is that it doesn't have a swivel for the cap to the Master Cylinder, so you have to rotate the entire thing to screw/unscrew it from the MS.

With that in mind, I would buy the cheapest one and add this billet adapter which does swivel : http://www.********************************************/acatalog/Metal_Swivel_Cap_for_Motive_Products_Power_Bleeder .html You can also get the Motive from them at a pretty good price. Hope this helps...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

j.fro · 03-19-2007, 02:07 AM

I'll throw in another vote for the Motive Power Bleeder. I just replaced all the padss on my car last week. It's an easy job. If the car is a base Box, $480 sounds about right. If the quote is $480 for S rotors/pads, it's a steal! By the way, since you are saving some cash, I suggest spending a bit on some stainless steel brake lines. I swapped mine out and it made a big difference in the brake feel.