Doing trackdays vs actually learning to drive
 

I just finished a AX day yesterday .. my 2nd AX day ever .. and had TONS of fun.

As with my first event, I went with an instructor again. Long story short, though I thought I pushed my car pretty hard ( 1 spin .. couple of almost that I caught luckily ) .. turns out I was not. My fastest non spin / dnf time was almost 5 seconds behind my instructor's first run in my car.

WOW!

That's quite a bit of time I left on the table .. more than a 7% difference. The car was actually capable of going even faster .. maybe low 60s if the instructor had more time with it.

Now my question .. how do I get faster ?

Do you guys just get fast by doing tons of events year after year for fun and eventually you just become fast .. or do you guys actually seek out "professional" instruction?

I left the event yesterday knowing SOME areas where I'm messing up .. braking too early in some spot .. not using the entire track in other .. ect ect .. of course I can try to keep working on these areas next event but this feel as if I'm trying to learn to fight by jumping into the ring .. instead of actually going to a boxing gym and LEARNING.

What are your thoughts ?

Practice makes perfect. Having an instructor helps.

You can do pro instruction, but practice is the main thing. You can learn a lot by following faster drivers, riding w/ faster drivers, etc. More than anything else, though, seat time is key.

BTW, it is possible to push your car hard & be SLOW. when i first started, i DESTROYED tires, brake pads, etc. I thought i was senna! Now i am in a whole other league speed wise, but my equipment lasts 5x as long......

as they say, don't focus on being fast. focus on being SMOOTH and the speed will come.

also, if you really want to learn to drive, you won't do it w/ six minutes in the seat during an Auto-X. you're in san jose; that's like an hour from laguna seca. go there & drive!

If you haven't already, you can also read performance/racing books to understand not only the how of driving technique, but the why of chassis dynamics. You can also see how your cars responds to different inputs in your street driving, just don't do it as "race" speeds!

Insite .. I'm doing a trackday @ Laguna next month .. will be my first and pretty psyched about it.

From the sound of it everyone thinks just getting more seat time is the way to go. Its certainly cheaper than the alternative of seeking out professional instruction.

I agree too somewhat that 'feel' is a big part of driving that can only come from seat time. Knowing that moment before the tire give up its last bit of grip wont come from a book or classroom ..

I guess I just wanted to make sure I don't find out 5 or 10 autox days, and 2 set of tires / brake pads / rotors later that I was learning things the harder way.

Stephen, what book do you recommend ? Any thing out there similar to 'Twist of the wrist' but for 4 wheels ?

pro instruction is expensive. if the margin between you and a pro is 10% of lap time, PCA instructors + seat time will get you 8% of that. pro coaches help you get that last 2%.

to put it another way, if you're looking for SECONDS, keep driving. when you're looking for TENTHS, coaching makes sense.

Hah. Nicely put insite.

I used to race motorcycles and my first time on the track, the instructor made us do the "no brakes" drill, which really worked in getting you familiarized with the track. We had to drive around the track without using the brakes, so that our concentration was on getting good corner speed. You quickly got a good sense of the lines to take into corners and the corner speeds. When we added braking, a lot of people's lap times went DOWN significantly. For me, judging speed while braking hard is still hardest part of racing.

Not sure if this applies to cars also.

If you want to 1. be safe, and 2. get good you do need proper instruction to start. There are many basics that you should get down pat before you start looking for speed, and the best way to do that is with good instruction. Like any sport you need the fundamentals first, and at times the only way to learn them is to be shown by a qualified instructor.

I see experienced drivers at the track who have had lots of seat time, but still don't know how to hold a steering wheel (a PCA instructor recently... he gained a few seconds a lap by fixing just that one thing) or many other of the driving fundamentals.

It can be pricy to take instruction... but it is much cheaper then hitting something. I see so many people spending big money to try and make their car faster, when what they should be doing is tuning the driver up.

Don't worry about being faster... worry about driving better and the speed will come.

Hmmm....I'll have to get back to you on a book recommendation, I have read many over the years. Corner-carvers.com had a good thread on that very topic.

As insite said: to drive faster, don't focus on going fast. Focus on the racing line, hitting your marks consistently, getting your corner entry speeds exactly right, drive smooth and settled, and fast will happen all by itself.

You are near PCA-GGR. They are good guys with a lot of very experienced drivers. Yoke their strength. Get with as many different instructors as you can and ride in their right seat often. I learn as much from the right seat with a skilled driver as I do behind the wheel. After 5-6 DEs with a good instructor a light will go on in your head.

If you ever get to a SoCal PCA event, look for me. I'll run a session with you.

Awesome topless. Might take you up on that offer sometime next year.

I've only done two autox events .. and had the opportunity to take advantage of 3 of GGR's instructors .. awesome guys .. all drive like madmens .. and taught me alot.

Some small changes make a huge difference .. for example one instructor actually totally changed the way I sit in the car .. very upright and forward .. almost to the point of being uncomfortable and hated it the first time I tried it .. now I do it everytime I race .. then switch back to my lazy relaxed sitting style when I'm back on the street.

I'll keep taking advantage of the available instructors for the next couple events. Kinda feel bad sometimes though when I do ask for an instructor because I'm sure those guys would rather spend their day doing their own things than running back and forth from their car to my car to ride with me.

Just discovered this great series on youtube 'Autocrossing with Dick Turner' ( Autocrossing with Dick Turner - 8 - Slaloms - YouTube ) .. already identified a bunch of other things I was doing "wrong" that I didn't realize before just with the slalom alone.

Like entering the first slalom cone @ a wide angle .. and then trying to jerk the wheel quickly to change direction .. in fact this is where I actually spun!

I cant wait until the next autocross day where I can practice again .. =D

Fast is smooth and smooth is fast.

I don't think reading a book is a good idea. It's like reading Penthouse for instructions on how to have sex!

And yes try to go to a track instead of auto-x... I always spend more time figuring out where the cones are pointing instead of getting the right line.

I have never done auto cross. What skills would be developed as oposed to the track?

After 18 track days this year, here is my advice on improving your times:

1. Experience
2. Experience
3. Experience
4. Experience
5. Experience

Ok, you get the point. Now, here are a few points to consider:
6. Learn to brake later and harder. This will pick up whole seconds per lap.
7. Get comfortable carrying more speed through the corners. Its not just about ripping through at breakneck speed but maintaining your momentum while keeping the car balanced. Its a lot harder than it sounds.
8. Keep the rev's up. If you're dropping below 4,500K rpms, then consider downshifting. The sweet spot is 4,500 - 6,000 rpm.
9. Get on the throttle earlier on corner exit. You can probably get on the throttle much earlier than you think without inducing throttle oversteer.
10. Get stickier tires. Use the lowest treadwear rated tires you can find.

Here is what I have learned from the many autocrosses I have done.
1) slower is faster. Chances are you are completely over driving the car. Your grip is limited by the little contact patch where your tire touches the ground. If you are braking hard and attempting to turn at the same time, you are over extending that contact patch. Working on smoothness and obtaining the speed you want to go through the turn at.

2) typically stay in one gear during an autocross. If you go into a turn, you might catch yourself pushing the clutch in and switch gears. It places undo stress on the clutch and slows you way down because you are shifting too much. Most courses I do, I get into second and stay there. Second is a perfect gear....it is really tall.

3) smoothness...smoothness...smoothness. The more you jerk the car around, you can upset the balance.

4). Depending on surface, most of the time my tire pressure is set at 34 in the rear and 30-32 in the front. Make sure you do not wear below the triangles on the side of the tire. You can ruin a set of good tires by destroying the sidewall.

I will leave it at that right now. You will really enjoy autocrossing and it will make you a much better driver on the road. You will truely learn the outer dynamics of your car at the limits. I think my autocrossing experience actually saved my families life last year when a car crossed into our lane on a winding road in the Appalachian mountains coming home from a cruise. it was by far the scariest moment I have been through in a long time.

Happy autocrossing.

Slower is faster .. that explain why all the old folks out there driving 914s are so quick ! .. JK =D

With GGR's course layout .. both times I do stay in just 2nd gear after I get up to speed.

After researching more ( videos / books ) I'm infact probably losing a lot of time by 'overdriving' the car .. pushing too hard through corners that I hear the tires chunking ( or maybe the fact that they're 19's is causing the chunking .. lol ).

I see now a ton of new areas I can practice and improve instead of just late braking and using the entire track.

Thanks guys!

a lot of it is managing slip angle. when you're newer, there's a tendency to think the car is pushing like hell. after you've been driving awile, you'll learn to get the car to lean onto its rear haunches a bit & understeer becomes much less of an issue. your tires will start to thank you.

Yeah like getting on the throttle on a downhill off camber sweeper...in the rain!

GGR event or LPR? The go to Boxster instructor for PCA NorCal AutoX and track is Dan Thompson. He has more seat time in Boxsters and 914's than any of the other NorCal guys who show up to their PCA events. When Dan is done with you, find Larry Sharp. Larry ran SCCA PRO SOLO and SOLOII in a full factory backed Ford ride :) He knows his sh_t. :)

I'm assuming you will be attending the PCA Time trial at Laguna? In Nov.? (Dan called me and asked me to attend)

You are in the perfect spot in the USA for seat time. Muliple AutoX events EVERY weekend with 4 different regions and 2 world class tracks within 2 hours of your house!

DO NOT run to the track events until you have beaten the fastest guy in your AX class!! Until you can do that.. your not ready. DO NOT go straight to sticky tires!! :)

At one point in time, I had 8-10 newbie drivers in GGR PCA AutoX :) I know the area and the people very well!


B

Some of the people above me poo poo'd the pro instruction idea.. I'm betting none of them have ever paid for pro instruction :)

Remember this: You get what you pay for. PCA doesn't pay their instructors. They are all volunteers. Now before somebody rips me.. I know full well PCA has good instructors nationwide (I listed off the top NorCal "free" guy's, but telling someone pro instruction isn't worth it? You haven't been instructed by a PRO.

I deal with multiple pro instructors. 2 days with a PRO and you will leapfrog all the naysayers (or your money back) These are guy's like Ryan Eversely,Craig Stanton,Gene Sigal, just to name a few local guy's who are at the track every day of the week instructing people!! Every day!! I see them everywhere I go!! lol They know how to handle newbies as well as experienced people looking for the last "tenth" Within 2 laps they know where you are and adjust the "curriculum" accordingly. When they take you out in your car.. they will not try to scare the sh_t out you and they will not drive 10/10ths :)

B

Hey Brad,

Yup, will be attending Laguna in Nov .. as far as not running to track until I'm the fastest AXer in my class .. kinda too late since I already signed up. =]

I know the track is a totally different animal than an AX course, so I wont be out there trying to win any checkered flags. My main purpose is just to have a fun day and get to know the track before taking my bike there for trackdays next year.

So far I've only attended GGR region stuff .. wanted to check out LPR too but couldnt make it .. definitely next year. HOPING that I can make it to all the GGR events and atleast 3-4 LPR event .. we'll see how that works out. =]

I might head to seek out a pro mid next year with a few more events .. depending on if I'm actually improving or if I hit a plateau .. what is a good school within a reasonable distance that you would suggest for a newbie like me ?

How about a school in San Diego? :) San Diego PCA has the best car control clinic in the USA hands down. GGR has a good school, but out of all the schools I have attended over the last 25 years.. San Diego region!~! I started AutoX'ing at age 16 in 86 with Maverick Region in Texas. No matter how much seat time I have had.. I still attend the schools when I can swing it.

Track school? Um?? Laguna.. lol Skip Barber has 1 day,2 day, 3 day 1week and 2week courses. The 1-2 day courses are more about car control and awareness.

Good luck!!

If you are bored next weekend, the Porsche Owners Club is at Thunderhill :) I'm coming up from SoCal to reconnect with some of my old Porsche friends from NorCal that will be running the event.


B

Hey Brad,

Thanks for the invite but I'm going to be helping my sister move next weekend. I took a look @ the POC site though and they seem to do more track events vs PCA which seems to focus on AX, which is great as it gives me more flexibility next year when I want to get on track vs an AX course.

Skip Barber is definitely pricey .. lol .. I am already saving up pennies to attend Keith Code's CSS next year for my 30th gift to myself. Unless I get a big raise, Skip is going to have to wait until next year. =(

This learning to race stuff isn't cheap at all .. LOL

Those of us who work 24/7 in the industry call it "crack".. and we are the drug dealers :) I suggest AutoX for at least one year. Save your money. AutoX will always translate to road racing/track events later.


B

I think "crack" might actually be cheaper .. LOL

come on up to vancouver; the pca canada west region (cwr) now uses a driving school to run their hpde events, so you get a pro instructor with the cost of admission. mission raceway is a short but technical track and great to learn on.

The crack is cheaper!! and the US govt. just reduced the sentence if you get caught with it!! :cheers:



B

Sorry for the delayed response. A few good general racing books are "Winning, a race driver's handbook" by Anderson, "Going faster"-Skip Barber, and "High performance driving" by Bob Bondurant. They aren't Auto-cross specific, but the concepts are the same.

Reading is helpful for many reasons: You can't learn how to drive sitting on the couch after dinner, but you can gain knowledge by reading about it. Understanding the physics of WHY a car behaves the way it does will allow you to modify your inputs to get the best out of it. For instance, which driver inputs will make a car understeer or oversteer. The theory will also help you understand suspension tuning. Like, what will installing stiffer rear springs or anti-roll bar will do?

In addition, as others have mentioned, not all the advice you receive will be good, whether from friend, competitors, or instructors. How will you know if you have no personal knowledge of the subject? You have to be equipped to filter advice, and decide what works for you.

I also agree that professional instruction is the best, and most expensive option.

Also, being a demon late-braker is the last thing to work on, and is usually the last thing a driver learns to do well. Granted,my experience is in SCCA road racing, but Auto-cross shouldn't defer too much.

Quick update after my first DE @ Laguna. I had a BLAST .. thanks GGR!

A few personal notes:

1. I -->BADLY<-- need to learn how to heel and toe downshift. Rev-matching without heel and toe works for me on the street, but was so slow on the track I had to point 2-3 cars by on turn 11 almost every time.

2. Laguna requires / deserves respect. Those walls come up reeeal quick. There was a few incidents but thankfully everyone was okay.

3. Tires / brakes goes away real fast compared to AX, but then it should since you're driving for 20 minutes @ a time vs ~1 minute.

4. DE makes you want to spend money to mod the crap out of your little Boxster to not get passed on straights by GT3s and 911s ( LOL .. like that's even possible ).

5. GoPro mounts ( double side sticky mounts ) will NOT stick anywhere on our dash. =( I bought a new GP and was not able to record any of the laps.

^ "Like" :D

You can definitely learn to heel-and-toe on the street, just at a lower rpm than on the track but it's still good practice to get the feel of rev points when you downshift.

Definitely H&T on the street. I do all the time, it helps make it second nature.

No sorry - Proper Practice Makes Perfect (better). Practicing bad habits simply ingrain bad habits. Like any sport, get proper instruction from someone who actually knows what you're doing less than perfect and then practice that.

San Diego PCA is planning a performance driving school at Qualcomm stadium.
Sat./Sun May 5-6 P.D.S. Peformance Driving School
I had already completed 13 AX before I attended but was able to shave some serious times after completion. The PDS will give you two full days of seat time practicing corners and techniques over & over. I thought it was a very valuable experience.

Nefarious, learning to properly drive the car is no different than golfing/skiing/bowling/basketball/etc. Learn from someone to get rid of bad habits and practice as much as you can.

Some pointers that others have mentioned already:
1) Driving position like Nascar or any other racer, arms/legs bent at maximum steering/pedal push.
2) Smooth, smooth, smooth (I make my HPDE students drive in one gear the first few sessions of the day)...shifting? overrated in imo.
3) Learn to drive the max out of stock tires/brakes/suspension/hp before upgrading. Then when it is time to upgrade, you will KNOW how to use the upgrades and will be much happier for it (I didn't use R-comp tires until 5 years into tracking).

It is the best feeling in the world when everyone in the top run group has mods/r-comps, and they come by after a session to find out you are running street tires and pretty much stock everything.:dance::dance::dance:

I recently told someone this again.. :)

Until you "win" your class in AutoX or TT, there is NO reason to spend money on tires/etc.

Kickass first, then moveup!


B

Brad, that was exactly what you said to me when you were giving me driving feedback at Fontana a few weeks ago. Great advice.

And 986 C6 has it right, its a great feeling to have someone come over at the track and ask if you're running a 3.2 or spec box suspension and you get to tell them that you're running a base 2.5 completely stock and they walk away trying to figure out how your lap time could possibly be faster than their time in a car with 300+hp.

If you are not 100% confident when going fast, just give up and save your money RE instructors! You will simply never be fast. Personally, this is my case-my problem and that's why I don't put the car on the track much or at all really. I am petrified going at over 160km/hr in 'any' 2-4 seats car higher than 100cm. And the fear gets much worst when I'm in the passenger seat ;)

However, if you are 100% confident, understand apex entries and exit momentums (e.g. blood racer), fine with inertia, and a little crazy but smart.... then I promisse you'll bring all the Cups home mate

RE instructors, sorry mate but those are for the wifes (second-drivers)