You know whats nice ?
 

No smoking in bars! I dont go out very often but the other night was my friends birthday. We went out to a local place and it was great not going home smelling like an ash tray. The law is new in for my County and I thjink Im going to like it. Im not a whiney non smoker by the way dont get me wrong but I must admit to liking the change.

I have to edit, its actualy no smoking in public places or within 20' of a public entrance etc etc....

smoke em if you got em
 

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I'm not a smoker except for an occasional cigar, but I'm against these antismoking and anti-transfat laws. I support smokers. IMHO if one doesnt like the smoke in the bar then just find another place and viceversa if you smoke. Or the owners of the establishment are not doing their job.

Can't wait to see the responses on this. . . .. :dance: :ah:

Same here...not a smoker but I go to Cigar Lounge once a month. I agree with Jeff, IMHO if one doesnt like the smoke in the bar then just find another place and viceversa if you smoke (qoute taken from Jeff post's)

That's why i'ts very rare for me to go to Vegas or Tahoe/Reno, unless I go Snowboarding in North Tahoe and need a place to stay. It's my choice not to go there :)

But, yah..It fells really good going to a place that is smoke free :)

They did that crap here in Austin I think starting last year. I hadn't been down town in quite a while, then in May, I went to meet a woman at a club, and noticed something missing... then I realized... no one is smoking?!?

Yeah, it's nice not smelling like I chainsmoked a carton of Camels when leaving, but it's still odd to me.

I'm all for people's right to choose to poison themselves... and I understand the law as limiting their ability to affect other (innocent?) people... but OTOH, I still think a bar or night club is a place where you should just expect there to be smoke.

It's really simple. Anyone should be free to kill themselves with the method of their choice, as long as they don't affect others while doing so. Hence, anti-transfat laws may be too restrictive as one needs to prove that unhealthy people raise the health care costs for all, but anti-smoking laws are right on the money. The effect to others here is much more clear. NYC has been smoke-free for three years now and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Personally, I consider it a matter of disrespect when someone expects me to breathe the smoke they are exhaling. Yes, even on the street. Assuming that I enjoy recreational spitting, I wonder what a smoker's reaction would be if I spit at them on the street, or at the bar?

Z.

thats one of the worst things ever, going out and comeing back home smelling like an astray.

first, think this thread is for the Lounge forum.

second, its way overdue that smoking in ALL shared spaces be banned.
There's little doubt about lethal second hand smoke. Let's stop playing
in the past, we are allot smarter nowadays.

I feel bad for all those people who chose to work in diners and eateries
where they ended up sucking in smoke, getting cancer, dropping dead and they were never smokers themselves or warned about the greater risk of 2nd hand smoke vs. "1st hand smoke".

I'm sorta a libertarian(sp?), do what you want with your body but dont':

1-Expect public assistance to treat your health care bills for your personal choices.
*This includes high cholesterol diets, trans fats should be banned from fast food eateries. Both smoking and cholesterol and the heart attacks and strokes they cause are killing several jumbo jet airliners full of people EVERY DAY.
If you get a physical and your doctor says "lay off the french fries" Medicare should not pay for your future treatment and private insurance rates should be raised for 'high risk' policy holders, much like driving.

2-Don't compromise the quality of life of others so that you can enjoy your choices.


People expect to be able to do whatever they want to do and want everyone else to pay for it.

Perfectlap,
I didnt put it in the lounge in case a smoker wanted to read it, duh.

P-L ...I could not have said it better.

The local hospital where my wife works - as of Jan1 - will not allow smoking on any of their grounds..including the sidewalks around the property...outlying parking lots, etc. "You junkies: stay off our property!" (I was one....)

j i m

good one.

put it in the hperbearic chamber forum. The smokers there haven't seen daylight since November.

p.s.
I was a big cigar poser for years. You know, ocassionaly smoked cigars with wine.
Not a hardcore daily smoker. I even met the editor of cigar afficionado Marvin something or other. I was partial to torpedos with less draw. I once attended a cigar tasting where we smoked five kinds of cigars, had 7 kinds of wines and had a six course meal after a cocktail reception of Sherry and other fine food. The restarant was somewhat infamous as it was blown up on an episode of the Sopranos. I was so blasted on nicotine and alcohol when I stumbled out of there... and some guys do that every weekend!

There are tons of cocktail, barterder and waiter jobs in AC (as well as Las Vegas) that can be found outside of casinos. Those workers have a choice, chase the big tips of whales and risk their health or make less money where the air isn't lethal.
Reminds me of the movie "Thank You for not Smoking". At some point personal choice and responsibility kicks in.
Although I would like to be in a Casino for a few hours without both killing myself and and my bank account.

Businesses lobbying against anti-smoking laws are really short-sighted, in my view. How do they know that those laws will actually hurt their business? With the public's awareness rising and the number of smokers dwindling, how do they know that "smoking allowed" isn't actually hurting business by turning away the rising number of clients who'd prefer a smoke free venue?

Before the smoking ban in NYC, many venue owners were afraid that they'd go bankrupt from the anticipated drop in patronage. Instead, three years later, I bet neither of them would allow smoking even if the ban was lifted -- in fear of losing the patrons who appreciate the cleaner air. Why should casinos be any different?

Z.

99.9% of casino regulars smoke, drink and wear silk shirts and or some article of gold.

Wouldn't that (ex silk & gold :) ) have been also true for the bar regulars in NYC before the smoking ban?

I smoked for 10 years. In college, my town went smokeless. Then got a job up in Seattle. Then Washington went smokeless.

I quit just before the change here in Wash. I was VERY pro-smoking in bars. Figured that smokers have lost most all their rights as it is (can pretty much only smoke in bars and bowling alleys), they should just let smoking stay along side drinking. But I'll have to say - I never realized as a smoker just how bad it smells in bars until I quit. My nose was numb to just how strong of a smell smoking creates.

Been off the sin-sticks for a year now, and have to agree. It's quite nice having non-smoking establishments.

I say the put smokers into a glass box like they do at the airports. As an old smoker - it wouldn't upset me at all - just as long as I didn't have to stand outside in the rain (20 feet min. from the entrance please!).

only in the outerboroughs (Brooklyn, Staten Island), New Jersey and Lawng Island. Manhattan has become so yuppy its reaching an all time high. A serious crime hasn't been reported since last year when this 27 year old I-banker had her vespa parked around the corner from where she left in Soho by some prankster.
just the other day I withdrew $20,000 from the bank to pay my auto insurance for the next six months and I waved all that cash at everyone on the street and some people told me to stop begging and panhandling.

Medicare should not pay for your future treatment and private insurance rates should be raised for 'high risk' policy holders, much like driving.

Insurers already charge more for individual "high risk" (read smokers) policy holders. Group rates of course, generally do not. However, I'd be careful advocating selective underwriting of health coverage at the discretion of insurers based on perceived "high risks" , that's a slippery slope.

In defense of casinos, I'd say that if one considers the number of smokers in Vegas (where it seems like 1 in 3 persons is smoking at a given time, no matter where you go) the casinos have done a remarkable job through ventilation and air filtration to make the air quality as good as possible.

Hi,

If Health concerns were the only factor, the answer is simple - make cigarettes illegal. But, the issue is much more complex than that.

The Tobacco issue is really one of Money, Power, Political Capital and Clout, not to mention tremendous hypocrisy.

The Governments (State and Federal) rely on some $26 B annually in Cigarette Taxes, while they grant $600 M in annual subsidies to Tobacco Growers.

Frankly, I'm surprised that Michael Moore hasn't reared his ugly head over the issue, must have put the $400M he got from Farenheit 9/11 into R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Company stock.

And has anyone really calculated the cost of eliminating Cigarettes? Think of the lost Revenue. The number of retail and shipping jobs which would be eliminated, not to mention the glut of out-of-work Healthcare Workers who'd be bagging groceries as their only means of supporting their families? And, Motorsports? Bye-bye.

Then there's the hypocrisy of those here who are appalled at the Smoking issue, all the while condoning, and even counseling, others how to defeat their Emissions Controls and even run straight pipes out the back of their Boxsters (I wonder what the Health risks are from secondhand Exhaust?).

The one thing I'm pretty sure of, at least the last time I checked, was that this is a board dedicated to Boxster Ownership and Enthusiasm. I find no relevance to having this discussion here and think Rich should padlock this thread. There are any number of forums and blogs for people to air their views in a more appropriate setting. As always, just my humble $0.02...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

it depends how much of a value the law makers place on human life.
And for the pragmatic types, consider the lost/lower wages of people sitting in hospitals or on disability because they now can't walk half a block due to complications from emphysyma(sp?) and chronic bronchitis. To say nothing of the 'gateway' drug issue.

Its like the old saying "you can pay now or you can pay me later but in the end you will pay". We are all paying for that Tobacco revenue. Healthcare costs in this country are cippling this country's fiscal future and cigarette smoking and unhealthy diets are MAJOR factors in the most out of shape and banged up generation of Americans this nation has seen in a who knows how long.

but I agree this issue belongs in the Lounge is anywhere.

Hi,

Actually, a study by the Harvard Medical School last year concluded that Smokers do not over tax the Healthcare system. The report concluded that the average Smoker is less Health-conscious (and consequently makes fewer visits to a doctor or Healthcare institution), and when they eventually do, it's usually a short-lived Healthcare consumption because their disease is usually well-advanced by that time. They die sooner on average than non-smokers so they actually consume fewer Healthcare dollars than the average non-Smoker does over a much longer timeframe.

That Smokers increase the cost of Healthcare is a myth supported by the Anti-Smoking lobby as a scare tactic to promote their views.

I am a non-Smoker. I do not support Smoking. But, I have serious concerns about the way our institutions and legislators have used this explosive issue to advance their own causes and agenda and add further limits to personal choice. My last words on the subject...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

being in a band I love when we hit a state that bans smoking....you at first don't realize it but then you start to notice something is different.....long live the ban, its starting in chicago too.....about time

I smoke about once every 6 months, usually outside a bar, at nite, when im on edge. relaxes my legs and i feel like i just got a dose of feel good drugs or whatever they give women that are in labor :D

Jim,
If your so disenchanted by this thread why did you post and continue to debate?
Just my .02

I'm sure smokers don't visit doctors too often because if they did they'd stop smoking. I remember Dr. Oz showing preserved lungs from dead smokers..frightening.
But public health care is tapped. "Cost shifting" where a patient without any coverage (out of work smokers) has all of his smoking realted treament bills shifted to that working patient who ends up paying $2,500 for a three hour emergency room visit for a mere bad-aid. This isn't accounted for in these studies because no one at these hospitals and treatment centers admti to borrowing from "Peter to pay for Paul" when they bill the carriers when medicare runs out. The "double books" of the hopital industry...

Now as far as lost tax revenues, consider that every single day a plane load of workers die. That (according to CDC) results in a loss of $92 Billion in lost productivity every year. The average smoker can count on going to grave 14 years earlier than he should have.
Tell a smoker you know to stop smoking today.

Why do cigarette smokers throw their butts out in the sidewalks and streets, or when driving they throw them out the window? This irritates me as much, if not more, than the actual second-hand smoke.

It shocks me that young people today start smoking, with everything we know about the health risks associated with cigarettes. But, I guess they feel invincible.

when ever I see the guy in front of me throw his cigarette out of his passenger window and I think an explosion is going to follow shortly...

my favorite is when I see a smoker pull into a gas station and he keeps on smoking...

Ohio,

Somehow, you've missed the fact that there are two classes of 986forum members; those who need to stick to the topic at hand at all times and those who are free to post whatever the Hell they want. I've aluded to this mysterious secret society previously. I am at a loss as to how one gains admission, though we are clearly not invited.

I could cite countless examples of this two class society, but I will not. Suffice it to say that winning $18,000 in Vegas and being forced to sit through a Celine Dion concert (in the front row, no less) has absolutely nothing to do with Boxsters last time I checked.

Personally, I like the off-topic conversation. For me, it's like walking into Cheers and meeting up with the boys in the evening. My Boxster is cool, but the Earth doesn't revolve around it.

My .02

Grizzly,
You made me go pee pee in my pants I laughed so hard. (Porsche panties by the way) seriously, I think the board gets kind of dry sometimes and this stuff gets people talking. I enjoy off topic stuff just as much.

One of the best thing that is happening in this forum is the off topic. I hang around here more than myspace..hehehehehe!

Grizz, you are right, our Boxsters are cool, but our world/conversation doesn't have to revolve around it. Well said, Grizz! 2 thumbs up :D

Oh, yah! glad to hear from you again, Ohio :cheers:

Hey Ohio,

I did not think a big dude like you ever spoke the words "pee pee" !! :)

Are you doing to do the Dragon Run with us in May?

Ohio, I was a little confused by a post you made a couple weeks ago. In it, I think you told a story about being in a bad neighborhood when someone made a snide remark about Boxsters. Do you carry a side arm? Help me out here. Thanks.

I have guns.

Thanks. Do the Dragon with us, Ohio!

Give me details and I will try to be a part of it. E-mail me if you want mpaolino@neo.rr.com I will have to look at it later I have to go night night.

Good night! Make sure you brush your teeth!

At one time I thought you worked for the IRS (when you were getting your promotion). And then, most recently, I thought you worked for the Insurance Industry.

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Following this argument to its logical extension then. . . .we should put limits on horspower on cars so they won't drive so fast, people will kill themselves driving fast. .. . .young people shouldnt drive until they're 25 since the risk of accidents at that age substantially decreases prompting isurance carriers to lowering their costs to insuring vehicles and drivers.

ditto with speedlimts. 70 mph is safe but 55 mph is safer. .. . but 20 mph is even safer!! It would save fuel too, and we'd be less oil dependent, so there's a triple benefit. While we're at it, all lights across the country should be turned off at 11pm, because it's not "safe" for you since you can't be up to any good after that hour and you're more likely to be caught for drinking and driving after that hour..

oh yeah, since 20 mph is safest cars should be lined with titanium reinforced block cages. . . . becasue if you get in an accident at that low speed you'd be more likely to survive.

In europe they smoke EVERYWHERE, airports, bars, sections of hospitals, burgerkings, McDonalds, public arenas, public buildings, yet they live as long if not lslightly longer than americans. (They serve alcohol in BK and McD's as well, even in front of all those innocent children.)

They should ban drinking, since people WILL drink and drive (oh yeah, we already tried that), or maybe even ban drinking until one is 30 years old since that will reduce risk even more. . . or would it?

Houses should be built underground and of concrete in hurricane-prone areas, since they are "safest."

Twinkies, cupcakes, sweets, softdrinks should be banned as well because they make us fat, and if you're fat your more likely to get diabetes, heart disease, and die younger thus rasining healthcare costs, thus "crippling" the "fiscal" future of our economy, unless of course we have national healthcare like they do in Europe and canada where they smoke everywhere, where drinking ages are much lower and they have higher speed limits than here.

IMHO the antismoking drive has nothing to do with health only control and regulation.

Light em up.

you know my folks have a place in Florida and I recently visited there and made a return trip to Disney World after a nearly 20 year abscence. I was old enough to remember my last visit there and the first thing that struck me was how many obese children I saw. It was disturbing. Fat knees and fat necks on chubby whiny faces. And their parents? were even worse. I wouldn't be surprised if the average American male has put on 20 pounds and the average female 15 pounds since the 80's. This nation has changed drastically in only 20 years.

Meanwhile exercise isn't even required in many schools. Did you see Supersize me? Great film.

Go ahead indulge in your personal freedoms and put away that three month supply of Ring Dings and Twinkies from Costco inside of a week! Then polish it off with a pack of Newport menthols and wash it down with 2 liters of mountain dew.

Like it or not when the goverment speaks Industry responds. Like over here in NYC, the bizzare Mayor Bloomberg decided to take on trans fats making them a public health issue. Now fast food chains across the country are starting to think about cutting this crap out of their food nationwide FOR FEAR OF LITIGATION?!
How about fear of profiting from the "chunking up" of America? These Corporations don't care.
Unfortunately we have become a sleep walking nation stuffing our faces with cigarettes, Bourbon, and Taco Bell.

See unlike driving at high speeds, no amount of cigarette smoking is safe. Not for the consumer or the sorry sap that has suck up the second hand smoke.

" How can I prevent laryngeal cancer?
Smoking is by far the strongest risk factor associated with the development of laryngeal cancer. Since it is fairly uncommon for a non-smoker to be diagnosed with laryngeal cancer, smoking cessation is the best way to prevent laryngeal cancer. In fact, not using tobacco of any kind, by either smoking or smokeless, is the healthiest thing anyone can do, both in terms of preventing laryngeal cancer, as well as the prevention of other throat cancers, lung cancers, and many other serious health problems.-www.oncolink.com

As a lawyer, you must've heard of a "straw man" argument, I'm sure. Here's where the straw man leads you: Preventing people from randomly shooting others point blank must only be about control and regulation.

On the contrary, antismoking has nothing to do with control and regulation and everything to do with: Your freedom is only restricted by the freedom you take away from others.

My freedom NOT to be exposed to someone's exhaled smoke (which btw has been proven to be dangerous to my health and wellbeing) should prevail over his freedom to smoke wherever he likes. As I said previously, we don't even need to prove that the smoker's disregard for his own health affects me through the increased health care costs. He directly affects me with the smoke that he blows into my lungs, and that's enough. Just as shooting randomly on the street is "controled and regulated", so should be smoking. Personally, I wouldn't mind if they didn't ban smoking but they regulated obligatory glass jars on top of smokers heads. That way they get to "enjoy" the full product of their cigs (no waste), and the public doesn't get affected. Win - win for all.

Z.

________________________________
1. Unless of course you crash at high speed and kill, cripple, or injure yourself, a passenger, pedestrian or another motorist, then it's just as deadly as a smoke except you've injected innocent bystanders into the equation.

2. Ponder this: do you think all the pollution from all exhausts is a lot more deadly to the entire world population that all cigarette smoke inhaled by primary and secondary smokers? If so, then shouldn't we try to ban oil completely? Are we already trying to do that?

how many smokers do you think would sign up for one them jars?

p.s.
JS, we should have switched to electric cars 20 years ago. I talked to my driver the other night on the way to the airport and asked him how long he was driving. He said 15 years. I asked him how many times a day a he had more than one passenger in his Town Car. He said zero. If that's not a candidate for a hybrid I don't know what is. As it is emissions standards on autos are very high relative to the rest of the world. At moment emissions standards on smokers are non-existent. Maybe we can fab up a nice low emissions jar to go on top of that smokers head?
p.s.s.
My current siginificant other is the first NOT to smoke. Thank god...

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You mean the freedom you take from those who choose to smoke in public places against those nonsmokers who choose to voluntarily attend those same public places? Sounds like a strawman argument to me.

My advice is to avoid patronage of smoke-freindly restaruants and establishments. There are plenty of them out there. ANd while you're there, quaff some CocaCola, imbibe bourbon, gorge cake, wallow in fried food and loosen your belt as it rubs against the table, but enjoy yourself.