engine rebuilds

[ike84]

what are the options for rebuilding a 2.7?

I see that L&N has a 2.7 -> 2.9 package, but (without wanting to start a flame war) I don't entirely trust that company.

I'm not interested so much in boring and sleeving, but moreso looking for dished pistons, stronger conrods, and a custom thickness head gasket.

Anyone have any suggestions?

On a side note, for anyone who has torn down an m96, how many have needed to deck the block when rebuilding? I asked over in the perf & tech chat side but no hits so far.

[beater986]

Originally Posted by ike84

what are the options for rebuilding a 2.7?

I see that L&N has a 2.7 -> 2.9 package, but (without wanting to start a flame war) I don't entirely trust that company.

I'm not interested so much in boring and sleeving, but moreso looking for dished pistons, stronger conrods, and a custom thickness head gasket.

Anyone have any suggestions?

On a side note, for anyone who has torn down an m96, how many have needed to deck the block when rebuilding? I asked over in the perf & tech chat side but no hits so far.

Also the back-log time and pricing is insane. Any other sane options out there?

[JFP in PA]

And exactly why do you think they have both a large back log and stiff pricing?

You could always go with Jake's shop if you want to see real back logs and high prices; he was more than a year out last time I checked..............

"Speed cost money; how fast do you want to go?"

[Quadcammer]

I think you're running a track car, so I'd upgrade the rods to K1 at least, and Carrillo if price is no object. I'm sure cometic can make you a headgasket of any thickness you want. Dished pistons...would likely have to be custom.

Your biggest issue will be the cylinders. If they aren't scored, they likely have too much ovality and taper, so you won't get the new rings to seal very well.

[ike84]

thanks quad, those were my thoughts exactly.

not really a track car per se...street car driven like one (probably even more punishment)

im starting to seriously gear up for a twin turbo build. if I drop the compression a bit with a thicker head gasket (yes, i know its taboo, please dont freak out about quench), with a good intercooler setup i should be able to run 7-8 psi safely on pump gas. obviously one starts to worry about the internals around that point. but, im not sure if i really need to worry about it at all.

dished pistons would be nice but only to help lower compression, but I can't imagine a custom job would be worth the proce.

i dont know if i need stronger con rods - con rods in the 2.7 are the same for all m96/m97 motors up to 3.4L, meaning that they can take a lot of power. 8psi twin turbo would put out nearly 300ftlbs torque on paper, the top torque spec on any 3.4L m97 is 270, so I am probably going to ok. plus, if i can't upgrade the pistons, the con rods will probably be a waste.

i definitely did think about ovality and taper. i think if thats the case with my motor (or anyone's) then there are going to be limited options for rebuilding outside ln or raby. how often these issues happen though seem to be a bit of a black box.

anyway, id never heard of the carillo rods. i appreciate the info, i will definitely look into them.

[PaulE]

If you end up keeping the stock con rods, get ARP rod bolts for sure. You may want to look at ARP studs and bolts for the case halves and heads too, especially if you're going to turbocharge it!

[ike84]

Originally Posted by PaulE

If you end up keeping the stock con rods, get ARP rod bolts for sure. You may want to look at ARP studs and bolts for the case halves and heads too, especially if you're going to turbocharge it!

Interesting - is there a problem with the stock con rod bolts? Or is it just to avoid retorquing them?

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[beater986]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

And exactly why do you think they have both a large back log and stiff pricing?

You could always go with Jake's shop if you want to see real back logs and high prices; he was more than a year out last time I checked..............

"Speed cost money; how fast do you want to go?"

Why do I think that is? Being an established vendor with a reputation well-positioned to take advantage of the upswing in these cars value and interest as of late.

When you have people knocking down your door you can be choosy and jack up prices. It’s a function of demand, NOT a function of “actual cost”.

I’m not at all speaking ill of them or their work. But I am skeptical that their margins are slim. These motors aren’t “special” and there’s no reason they should cost any more than any other motor to build outside of the “Porsche tax”.

Personally, I’d rather spend less money at another shop that is equipped to do the same work cheaper but isn’t demanding the premiums an industry recognizable name can.

When I first started my business I had to beg for customers and would do any deal on slim margins. I was still in the phase of building a reputation and had a growth cycle. The customers got a good deal, I wasn’t getting rich, but I could keep the lights on and I was building my brand and customer base. Nowadays I can be choosey about our customers and increase our price margin. In doing so, I’ll be turning away some customers in the same way Jake is turning away customers who can’t justify spending 20k+ on a car that’s worth half of that.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by beater986

"These motors aren’t “special” and there’s no reason they should cost any more than any other motor to build outside of the “Porsche tax”."

"Personally, I’d rather spend less money at another shop that is equipped to do the same work cheaper but isn’t demanding the premiums an industry recognizable name can.'

If the first statement were true, there would be many more quality rebuild shops out there, but as there aren't very many decent much less quality rebuilders, and more than a few really bad ones, there seems to be some indication that there really is something unusual about these engines.

As for the second statement, when it comes to engine rebuilds, you generally get what you pay for. With just replacing the factory cylinders which tend to become more oval than round running the better part of five grand, no M96/97 rebuild is going to be cheap.

[ike84]

beater and jfp -

i think that both of you have valid points. the only two shops that I know of who do m96 rebuilds routinely are L&N and Raby.

with that being said, there are other shops around that rebuild german nikasil motors quite routinely. and they have great success with less sophisticated models in much more demanding applications.

as with any business model, niche providers whose supply is in high demand are able to charge more money. it's all about what you want, how deep your pockets are, and whether you're willing to drink the koolaid.

the koolaid is my problem. l&n doesnt seem to have their **************** together in any way, shape, or form. the design of some of their other products (like the tstat for example) are, quite frankly, idiotic - who the hell makes a tstat that isnt a fail-open design any more?? and their website information regarding m96 issues is, quite frankly, wrong. the whole diatribe about vacumm leaks causing motors to run rich and thats what causes bore scoring, is in my opinion, one of the most wrong things I have ever read in regards to these motors.

mr raby on the other hand doesnt advertise or go through the same show as mr navarro, so its a but harder to judge. he also hasnt had a forum voice for many years after he decided to leave the community. but he used to speak of his motors as being bulletproof and having over a tb of data on his projects, two claims that I just have a hard time buying into. i'm not at all saying that he is dishonest, I just inherently steer away from individuals with absolute confidence.

don't get me wrong, I am not questioning for a minute that these guys know far more about these motors then I do, and I am sure that you get what you pay for in these situations, but I don't know how anyone can justify dumping twice the cars worth into the motor. lord knows raby doesn't need another tank to play with, after all........

[harnishclan]

https://www.****************************************.com/porsche-boxster-27-l-rebuilt-engine-years-00-04-p-12051.aspx

Or find one of Raby’s students and commission them to rebuild it. I did that with my 2.5 and have beat the hell out of it exclusively on track for the past four years with no issues.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by ike84

. the whole diatribe about vacumm leaks causing motors to run rich and thats what causes bore scoring, is in my opinion, one of the most wrong things I have ever read in regards to these motors.

mr raby on the other hand doesnt advertise or go through the same show as mr navarro, so its a but harder to judge. he also hasnt had a forum voice for many years after he decided to leave the community. but he used to speak of his motors as being bulletproof and having over a tb of data on his projects, two claims that I just have a hard time buying into. i'm not at all saying that he is dishonest, I just inherently steer away from individuals with absolute confidence.

You just might be surprised about just how right the overly rich mixture leading to bore scoring really is. Both the M96 & 97 engines have demonstrated their tendency to bore scoring if overly rich conditions persist for prolong periods, regardless of whether it was due to vacuum leaks (which typically take longer) or dripping injectors (where it happens much quicker); just as the 9A1 engines have shown the same tendency due to cold start cylinder wall washing caused by direct injection.

Jake on the other hand may be a little too mercurial for some tastes, which is why he stopped posting on several forums and selling components, and now focuses only on complete engines; but while you may not care for how he behaves, his reputation for innovations, really solid engine assemblies, and some significant power output increases is both hard earned and real, which is why his business has grown from being housed in an old chicken coop to a world class custom built facility that is recognized worldwide for what it is capable of producing, even if you have to wait a year or more to get access to it.

[Oldcarguy]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

. . .Jake on the other hand may be a little too mercurial for some tastes, which is why he stopped posting on several forums and selling components, and now focuses only on complete engines; but while you may not care for how he behaves, his reputation for innovations, really solid engine assemblies, and some significant power output increases is both hard earned and real, which is why his business has grown from being housed in an old chicken coop to a world class custom built facility that is recognized worldwide for what it is capable of producing, even if you have to wait a year or more to get access to it . . .

Well said JFP. I didn’t drink any ‘koolaid’ and I resent all that phrase implies in the context of my choice. I researched available M96 performance engine build options and it came down to FSI (Jake) and Hartech (Lee Jenkins). I’m in the US so FSI it was. My 3.8L Street Performer Plus never disappoints and it was well worth the nine month wait to start my four month turnkey build. The same is true of my friend’s FSI 3.6L Track Performer build. His 996 was two cars in the queue behind my car.

Jake doesn’t need a ‘forum voice’, his cars on the ground do all the talking.

[flmont]

Or find one of Raby’s students and commission them to rebuild it. I did that with my 2.5 and have beat the hell out of it exclusively on track for the past four years with no issues.

I don't know how involved it is,.But F6I,.did a rebuild video on these engines for the public,But I doubt his secret's are in it and that's what you are paying for short of machine work,and part's, Etc, I made mention once that he could do very well by lowering his price and he could make it up in volume, He quickly shot that down due to what he felt was the importance of the assembly process,..sounds like he builds them with more care than Porsche does,.But, I think a great engine could be built for less..ya just gotta know how or learn how,.Hell, I scratch my head with cam timing.. Frank

[ike84]

Originally Posted by flmont

Or find one of Raby’s students and commission them to rebuild it. I did that with my 2.5 and have beat the hell out of it exclusively on track for the past four years with no issues.



I don't know how involved it is,.But F6I,.did a rebuild video on these engines for the public,But I doubt his secret's are in it and that's what you are paying for short of machine work,and part's, Etc, I made mention once that he could do very well by lowering his price and he could make it up in volume, He quickly shot that down due to what he felt was the importance of the assembly process,..sounds like he builds them with more care than Porsche does,.But, I think a great engine could be built for less..ya just gotta know how or learn how,.Hell, I scratch my head with cam timing.. Frank

That video series looks pretty neat, at $600 though it's an investment in its own right.

On the other hand, martin hill tears down and rebuilds an m96 on YouTube for the low low price of free ninety nine, and those videos are fantastic.



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[ike84]

Originally Posted by Oldcarguy

Well said JFP. I didn’t drink any ‘koolaid’ and I resent all that phrase implies in the context of my choice. I researched available M96 performance engine build options and it came down to FSI (Jake) and Hartech (Lee Jenkins). I’m in the US so FSI it was. My 3.8L Street Performer Plus never disappoints and it was well worth the nine month wait to start my four month turnkey build. The same is true of my friend’s FSI 3.6L Track Performer build. His 996 was two cars in the queue behind my car.

Jake doesn’t need a ‘forum voice’, his cars on the ground do all the talking.

Oldcarguy, my comments are not intended to offend. Despite my use of the colloquialism, Im trying to look at this situation from an objective point of view A car such as yours probably costs close to $50k to build, right? 15k for the door vehicle, 25k for the moto buildr, and 10k in labor plus additional parts. And what is the end result - a 986 with 8lbs/hp. That is a formidable vehicle! But to what end?

F6I builds never recoup their money at resale (not that I've ever seen, at least), and most every modified porsche depreciates in value compared to their stock brethren.

From a racing standpoint, I don't know about PCA rules, but if you race that vehicle in scca you would be put into the super street modified class. You are up against crazy good competition there! When you line up next to the beefed up z4s and Elise sc's, suddenly your 8:1 isn't so impressive any more.

My point is that these builds are in their own very special niche. And that niche, mind you, is a tiny sliver of an already small population of porsche enthusiasts. For some, such as yourself, a vehicle such as this represents the pinnacle of motor sports excellence. Others, such as myself, would beg to differ.

But hey, what do I know. As my best friend says, I'm nothing more than a redneck with a degree

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[flmont]

ike84,..yea,.I dig,I was and still might, buy that video for the M96 rebuild and yes I thought 600.00 is kinda steep,.But,if it saves you from other people making mistake's on your engine,then it may be worth it, I would trust it is spot on for at least the generic rebuild,ByProdriver took Mr.Raby's class or classes and built his own engine,.to what the real expense was for him IDK,.but it may be worth asking his opinion on the best way to DIY..I would sure like to know if the Laymen could accomplish that task at home !,. plenty of people rebuild Subaru engines..and they are Boxer engines. But I don't think they suffer with the same issues as the M96 engines do,But iam sure its not the same design either..?

[Oldcarguy]

Originally Posted by ike84

Oldcarguy, my comments are not intended to offend. Despite my use of the colloquialism, Im trying to look at this situation from an objective point of view A car such as yours probably costs close to $50k to build, right? 15k for the door vehicle, 25k for the moto buildr, and 10k in labor plus additional parts. And what is the end result - a 986 with 8lbs/hp. That is a formidable vehicle! But to what end?

F6I builds never recoup their money at resale (not that I've ever seen, at least), and most every modified porsche depreciates in value compared to their stock brethren.

From a racing standpoint, I don't know about PCA rules, but if you race that vehicle in scca you would be put into the super street modified class. You are up against crazy good competition there! When you line up next to the beefed up z4s and Elise sc's, suddenly your 8:1 isn't so impressive any more.

My point is that these builds are in their own very special niche. And that niche, mind you, is a tiny sliver of an already small population of porsche enthusiasts. For some, such as yourself, a vehicle such as this represents the pinnacle of motor sports excellence. Others, such as myself, would beg to differ.

But hey, what do I know. As my best friend says, I'm nothing more than a redneck with a degree

Hi Ike,

Thanks for your considered response and tone. My 550SE with the Raby engine is my ninth Porsche amongst ownership of many other marques. I’m appreciative of the cars I’ve been fortunate to own but I’m not enamored with any particular brand or model. I’ve also participated in a lot of motorsports across the decades and occasionally still enjoy a random autocross or HPDE. But it’s not the end of the world if I never see track time again.

Respectfully, it’s presumptuous for you to assert that “for some, such as yourself, a vehicle such as this represents the pinnacle of motor sports excellence”. Nothing could be further from the truth. You don’t know anything about me, my experiences, my values, viewpoints or my life journey.

I undertook my 550SE project as a form of self expression. Not to build a track car, a competitive car, an investment car, a formidable car or a pinnacle of anything. I don’t care about impressing anyone with power to weight ratios, value, appearance or any other metric. I undertook this multi year project for me, to create a car built to my specification, modified mostly by my own hands, to realize my vision for a personalized roadster.

Anyway, thanks for the dialog and I’m sure our paths will cross in the forum again.

[azlvr]

Originally Posted by Oldcarguy

I undertook my 550SE project as a form of self expression. Not to build a track car, a competitive car, an investment car, a formidable car or a pinnacle of anything. I don’t care about impressing anyone with power to weight ratios, value, appearance or any other metric. I undertook this multi year project for me, to create a car built to my specification, modified mostly by my own hands, to realize my vision for a personalized roadster.

Anyway, thanks for the dialog and I’m sure our paths will cross in the forum again.

Well said, I have also headed down the same path and feel the same way. I've spent tons of money and did all the work myself but that doesn't matter. You have a very nice car.

[Oldcarguy]

Originally Posted by azlvr

Well said, I have also headed down the same path and feel the same way. I've spent tons of money and did all the work myself but that doesn't matter. You have a very nice car.

Thanks Azlvr, As you, I’m very satisfied with my results. IMHO the fact that you did all the work yourself on your car matters very much. There’s nothing like driving a vehicle that is alive due to your efforts.