engine rebuilds

[ike84]

beater and jfp -

i think that both of you have valid points. the only two shops that I know of who do m96 rebuilds routinely are L&N and Raby.

with that being said, there are other shops around that rebuild german nikasil motors quite routinely. and they have great success with less sophisticated models in much more demanding applications.

as with any business model, niche providers whose supply is in high demand are able to charge more money. it's all about what you want, how deep your pockets are, and whether you're willing to drink the koolaid.

the koolaid is my problem. l&n doesnt seem to have their **************** together in any way, shape, or form. the design of some of their other products (like the tstat for example) are, quite frankly, idiotic - who the hell makes a tstat that isnt a fail-open design any more?? and their website information regarding m96 issues is, quite frankly, wrong. the whole diatribe about vacumm leaks causing motors to run rich and thats what causes bore scoring, is in my opinion, one of the most wrong things I have ever read in regards to these motors.

mr raby on the other hand doesnt advertise or go through the same show as mr navarro, so its a but harder to judge. he also hasnt had a forum voice for many years after he decided to leave the community. but he used to speak of his motors as being bulletproof and having over a tb of data on his projects, two claims that I just have a hard time buying into. i'm not at all saying that he is dishonest, I just inherently steer away from individuals with absolute confidence.

don't get me wrong, I am not questioning for a minute that these guys know far more about these motors then I do, and I am sure that you get what you pay for in these situations, but I don't know how anyone can justify dumping twice the cars worth into the motor. lord knows raby doesn't need another tank to play with, after all........

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by ike84

. the whole diatribe about vacumm leaks causing motors to run rich and thats what causes bore scoring, is in my opinion, one of the most wrong things I have ever read in regards to these motors.

mr raby on the other hand doesnt advertise or go through the same show as mr navarro, so its a but harder to judge. he also hasnt had a forum voice for many years after he decided to leave the community. but he used to speak of his motors as being bulletproof and having over a tb of data on his projects, two claims that I just have a hard time buying into. i'm not at all saying that he is dishonest, I just inherently steer away from individuals with absolute confidence.

You just might be surprised about just how right the overly rich mixture leading to bore scoring really is. Both the M96 & 97 engines have demonstrated their tendency to bore scoring if overly rich conditions persist for prolong periods, regardless of whether it was due to vacuum leaks (which typically take longer) or dripping injectors (where it happens much quicker); just as the 9A1 engines have shown the same tendency due to cold start cylinder wall washing caused by direct injection.

Jake on the other hand may be a little too mercurial for some tastes, which is why he stopped posting on several forums and selling components, and now focuses only on complete engines; but while you may not care for how he behaves, his reputation for innovations, really solid engine assemblies, and some significant power output increases is both hard earned and real, which is why his business has grown from being housed in an old chicken coop to a world class custom built facility that is recognized worldwide for what it is capable of producing, even if you have to wait a year or more to get access to it.

[Oldcarguy]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

. . .Jake on the other hand may be a little too mercurial for some tastes, which is why he stopped posting on several forums and selling components, and now focuses only on complete engines; but while you may not care for how he behaves, his reputation for innovations, really solid engine assemblies, and some significant power output increases is both hard earned and real, which is why his business has grown from being housed in an old chicken coop to a world class custom built facility that is recognized worldwide for what it is capable of producing, even if you have to wait a year or more to get access to it . . .

Well said JFP. I didn’t drink any ‘koolaid’ and I resent all that phrase implies in the context of my choice. I researched available M96 performance engine build options and it came down to FSI (Jake) and Hartech (Lee Jenkins). I’m in the US so FSI it was. My 3.8L Street Performer Plus never disappoints and it was well worth the nine month wait to start my four month turnkey build. The same is true of my friend’s FSI 3.6L Track Performer build. His 996 was two cars in the queue behind my car.

Jake doesn’t need a ‘forum voice’, his cars on the ground do all the talking.

[flmont]

Or find one of Raby’s students and commission them to rebuild it. I did that with my 2.5 and have beat the hell out of it exclusively on track for the past four years with no issues.

I don't know how involved it is,.But F6I,.did a rebuild video on these engines for the public,But I doubt his secret's are in it and that's what you are paying for short of machine work,and part's, Etc, I made mention once that he could do very well by lowering his price and he could make it up in volume, He quickly shot that down due to what he felt was the importance of the assembly process,..sounds like he builds them with more care than Porsche does,.But, I think a great engine could be built for less..ya just gotta know how or learn how,.Hell, I scratch my head with cam timing.. Frank

[ike84]

Originally Posted by flmont

Or find one of Raby’s students and commission them to rebuild it. I did that with my 2.5 and have beat the hell out of it exclusively on track for the past four years with no issues.



I don't know how involved it is,.But F6I,.did a rebuild video on these engines for the public,But I doubt his secret's are in it and that's what you are paying for short of machine work,and part's, Etc, I made mention once that he could do very well by lowering his price and he could make it up in volume, He quickly shot that down due to what he felt was the importance of the assembly process,..sounds like he builds them with more care than Porsche does,.But, I think a great engine could be built for less..ya just gotta know how or learn how,.Hell, I scratch my head with cam timing.. Frank

That video series looks pretty neat, at $600 though it's an investment in its own right.

On the other hand, martin hill tears down and rebuilds an m96 on YouTube for the low low price of free ninety nine, and those videos are fantastic.



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[ike84]

Originally Posted by Oldcarguy

Well said JFP. I didn’t drink any ‘koolaid’ and I resent all that phrase implies in the context of my choice. I researched available M96 performance engine build options and it came down to FSI (Jake) and Hartech (Lee Jenkins). I’m in the US so FSI it was. My 3.8L Street Performer Plus never disappoints and it was well worth the nine month wait to start my four month turnkey build. The same is true of my friend’s FSI 3.6L Track Performer build. His 996 was two cars in the queue behind my car.

Jake doesn’t need a ‘forum voice’, his cars on the ground do all the talking.

Oldcarguy, my comments are not intended to offend. Despite my use of the colloquialism, Im trying to look at this situation from an objective point of view A car such as yours probably costs close to $50k to build, right? 15k for the door vehicle, 25k for the moto buildr, and 10k in labor plus additional parts. And what is the end result - a 986 with 8lbs/hp. That is a formidable vehicle! But to what end?

F6I builds never recoup their money at resale (not that I've ever seen, at least), and most every modified porsche depreciates in value compared to their stock brethren.

From a racing standpoint, I don't know about PCA rules, but if you race that vehicle in scca you would be put into the super street modified class. You are up against crazy good competition there! When you line up next to the beefed up z4s and Elise sc's, suddenly your 8:1 isn't so impressive any more.

My point is that these builds are in their own very special niche. And that niche, mind you, is a tiny sliver of an already small population of porsche enthusiasts. For some, such as yourself, a vehicle such as this represents the pinnacle of motor sports excellence. Others, such as myself, would beg to differ.

But hey, what do I know. As my best friend says, I'm nothing more than a redneck with a degree

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[flmont]

ike84,..yea,.I dig,I was and still might, buy that video for the M96 rebuild and yes I thought 600.00 is kinda steep,.But,if it saves you from other people making mistake's on your engine,then it may be worth it, I would trust it is spot on for at least the generic rebuild,ByProdriver took Mr.Raby's class or classes and built his own engine,.to what the real expense was for him IDK,.but it may be worth asking his opinion on the best way to DIY..I would sure like to know if the Laymen could accomplish that task at home !,. plenty of people rebuild Subaru engines..and they are Boxer engines. But I don't think they suffer with the same issues as the M96 engines do,But iam sure its not the same design either..?

[Oldcarguy]

Originally Posted by ike84

Oldcarguy, my comments are not intended to offend. Despite my use of the colloquialism, Im trying to look at this situation from an objective point of view A car such as yours probably costs close to $50k to build, right? 15k for the door vehicle, 25k for the moto buildr, and 10k in labor plus additional parts. And what is the end result - a 986 with 8lbs/hp. That is a formidable vehicle! But to what end?

F6I builds never recoup their money at resale (not that I've ever seen, at least), and most every modified porsche depreciates in value compared to their stock brethren.

From a racing standpoint, I don't know about PCA rules, but if you race that vehicle in scca you would be put into the super street modified class. You are up against crazy good competition there! When you line up next to the beefed up z4s and Elise sc's, suddenly your 8:1 isn't so impressive any more.

My point is that these builds are in their own very special niche. And that niche, mind you, is a tiny sliver of an already small population of porsche enthusiasts. For some, such as yourself, a vehicle such as this represents the pinnacle of motor sports excellence. Others, such as myself, would beg to differ.

But hey, what do I know. As my best friend says, I'm nothing more than a redneck with a degree

Hi Ike,

Thanks for your considered response and tone. My 550SE with the Raby engine is my ninth Porsche amongst ownership of many other marques. I’m appreciative of the cars I’ve been fortunate to own but I’m not enamored with any particular brand or model. I’ve also participated in a lot of motorsports across the decades and occasionally still enjoy a random autocross or HPDE. But it’s not the end of the world if I never see track time again.

Respectfully, it’s presumptuous for you to assert that “for some, such as yourself, a vehicle such as this represents the pinnacle of motor sports excellence”. Nothing could be further from the truth. You don’t know anything about me, my experiences, my values, viewpoints or my life journey.

I undertook my 550SE project as a form of self expression. Not to build a track car, a competitive car, an investment car, a formidable car or a pinnacle of anything. I don’t care about impressing anyone with power to weight ratios, value, appearance or any other metric. I undertook this multi year project for me, to create a car built to my specification, modified mostly by my own hands, to realize my vision for a personalized roadster.

Anyway, thanks for the dialog and I’m sure our paths will cross in the forum again.

[azlvr]

Originally Posted by Oldcarguy

I undertook my 550SE project as a form of self expression. Not to build a track car, a competitive car, an investment car, a formidable car or a pinnacle of anything. I don’t care about impressing anyone with power to weight ratios, value, appearance or any other metric. I undertook this multi year project for me, to create a car built to my specification, modified mostly by my own hands, to realize my vision for a personalized roadster.

Anyway, thanks for the dialog and I’m sure our paths will cross in the forum again.

Well said, I have also headed down the same path and feel the same way. I've spent tons of money and did all the work myself but that doesn't matter. You have a very nice car.

[Oldcarguy]

Originally Posted by azlvr

Well said, I have also headed down the same path and feel the same way. I've spent tons of money and did all the work myself but that doesn't matter. You have a very nice car.

Thanks Azlvr, As you, I’m very satisfied with my results. IMHO the fact that you did all the work yourself on your car matters very much. There’s nothing like driving a vehicle that is alive due to your efforts.