Did something stupid, please advise

Threpwood, I think you got lucky that Porsche covered this under warranty. Good for you!

[threpwood]

My warranty was out like a month before the accident Hence the $3000 for the fix.

Porsche japan initially asked me if I wanted a new overpriced 3.2 engine for $10,000 or take a risk and let them try to fix it for $3000 (with no guarantee of success). I'm glad I made the later choice because it's 'only' the fuel lines that got clogged and nothing else.

Originally Posted by threpwood

My warranty was out like a month before the accident Hence the $3000 for the fix.

Porsche japan initially asked me if I wanted a new overpriced 3.2 engine for $10,000 or take a risk and let them try to fix it for $3000 (with no guarantee of success). I'm glad I made the later choice because it's 'only' the fuel lines that got clogged and nothing else.

Threpwood, oouch! Sorry, I missunderstood you. That really does suck. But, for $10K you could have had a new 295 HP engine...I think that would have been a great deal, and was a good/fair offer IMHO.

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by boxsterz

You chose #1, run and hide with your tail between your legs.





You choose #2, You further avoid the rationally obvious, CAN WW GEL IN GAS. I wish to corroborate the Lab's findings, since the Lab's finding says the jelly is most likely coolant additive. Last time I looked WW=coolant additive. "common contrary evidence about these chemicals, well known to all (but apprarently you).", Really? are there other Chemestro experts like you here? I wish they'd speak up. Maybe they'd like a crack at nullifying the simple experiment also, especially if it ends up shooting jelly. Jelly would be Tasty.







Sure I admit I don't know how WW and gas will react chemically. I never said I did. I do believe however it will settle to the bottom, coalesce and not mix with gas, much the same way as I observed water doing. I never claimed to be Mr. Chemestro here. That's your braggadocio, which is what we are trying to verify: YOUR knowledge in chemisty since you go on and on and on about it.

If the simple experiment does not produce WW gelling, as I said before Mr. Short term memory, then a logical conclusion can not be drawn based upon our simple experiment, and something was missing, be it a red gummy bear, Red-line Fuel Injector Cleaner, or a plethora of other unknown substances, or insufficient heat cycles, winter gas vs. summer gas chemical make up, etc... -- But I won't argue that. -- If no gel, then no logically definitive conclusions can be drawn. I do not have the interest or resources for further exhaustive investigations in finding all necessary conditions. But back to the point,


If it comes up gel, however, then I DO KNOW, with CERTAINTY, that you are dead wrong. If you were honestly secure in your "knowledge", you'd have nothing to fear with the simple experiment, as it should do as you claim: will NOT gel. Conversely, it appears that you are being extremely evasive about the experiment. That would be the position of a charlatan.



You already picked number 1 & 2, you might as well step up to #3 and help define the experiment. Put up or shut up time.

I asked you to cool down. Please do so.

Thanks.

threpwood,


Thanks for the update!



Brucelee,

In all fairness, what would you have me do? MNBoxster is doing a disservice to all forum members and automotive enthusiasts. He seems more interested in maintaining his image rather than allowing real knowledge to gel (pun intended), which would benefit everyone.


It's your forum, I understand you may not wish to run it democratically :ah:




I'll wait for our "expert" to chime in, this should be good

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by boxsterz

threpwood,


Thanks for the update!



Brucelee,

In all fairness, what would you have me do? MNBoxster is doing a disservice to all forum members and automotive enthusiasts. He seems more interested in maintaining his image rather than allowing real knowledge to gel (pun intended), which would benefit everyone.


It's your forum, I understand you may not wish to run it democratically :ah:




I'll wait for our "expert" to chime in, this should be good

This is NOT about democracy. You guys can debate all you like. Leave out the name calling and attitude and just make your points without making it personal.

That is all I ask.

[OldBlevins]

I'm no chemist and my knowledge is pretty sketchy, but there's one thing we've run across from time to time in our fleet. We've had instances with our tanker trunks where we've used a material with a positive charge, emptied the tank completely, then filled it with another material that had a negative charge. It gelled in the distribution lines and was a mess to clean up. We've found we had to completely clean the tanks and lines out before putting an opposite-charged material in them, even though the amount of material left in the tank was negligible. *Why* this is, I have no clue.

[MNBoxster]

Hi,

Well, the spectral analysis doesn't reveal the presence of any of the compounds which make-up Water Wetter - check it out yourself at RedLine's MSDS publication: http://www.redlineoil.com/msds/17.pdf There is no mention of any Potassium (Kalium) in RedLine's publication for instance.

The Lab's conclusion also mentions that the gel is consistent with a Long-Life Coolant - exactly what the Boxster uses. The OEM coolant is the equivalent of Artego Coolant in europe and Texaco / Havoline Dex-Cool here in the US.

If you review Havoline's Dex-Cool MSDS - http://www.havoline.com/images/products/pdfs/anti_exlife.pdf , you'll see that it contains Potassium 2-ethylhexanoate in a fairly abundant quantity, 2nd in abundance along with diethylene glycol.

Spectral analysis is a very sound testing method, but the conclusions drawn from it are where there is room for error.

The analysis is not consistent with the chemical make-up of Water Wetter, nor does the Lab specifically identify the sample as being Water Wetter - only a Coolant Booster. There may be other Coolant Boosters (more like conditioners which Water Wetter really isn't) which have a chemical make-up consistent with the sample, I don't know. The information given to us and upon which I made my initial and subsequent research and replies was Water Wetter.

But, the results are consistent with the make-up of Long Term coolant. We already know that Water Wetter was added to the Fuel system either mistakenly (not knowing the proper fill point) or absent-mindedly. What is the possibility that the same was done with Coolant, perhaps even with no cognitive knowledge or memory of it?

I make no prediction one way or the other, except to say that the analysis does not rule out, and may actually seem to favor this as a possibility.

The reported Time Lag is also nagging at me because I cannot believe that an issue such as this would manifest itself so long after the supposed cause was introduced (9 mos.), though without further research, I must allow the possibility to remain open that it well could...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

[Franco]

Hi, When i was a young lad my dad sent me to the auto parts store to purchase some windshield washer fluid and i returned with some engine coolant instead , he didn't notice and used the stuff in his new Pontiac Catalina as windshield washer.
Six months later car was back at the dealer to have the entire top repainted, till this day my dad thinks it was faulty paint, seriously didn't he notice the greasy film on his windshield , I had figured out the culprit kept my mouth shut and avoided a beating, now that's SIENCE guys and he still loves me.

I kept this locked up inside for 30 years, thank god for this Forum
I feel much better now

God Bless

WOW. I am astounded.

How in the world did you miss the 7.6% Molybdenum??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_molybdate ?


It' in BOTH the WW and the jelly.

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

Hi,

Well, the spectral analysis doesn't reveal the presence of any of the compounds which make-up Water Wetter - check it out yourself at RedLine's MSDS publication: http://www.redlineoil.com/msds/17.pdf

It's self-evident you're in your own world . It's pointless debating with you since you lack the most elementary prerequisites for mature, intelligent discourse. I do not know what ails you besides an apparent highly selective memory, but I do sincerely wish your attitude for the truth improves.


Having said that, I intend to conduct my own experiment with WW and proportionate amounts of premium gas. I believe it will clarify what was muddied. My hope is it will be definitive. It may not be. I will post the details with pics as I proceed. Any takers? Shall I put this up to a vote? Does anyone really care? If nobody cares, I'll put this on the low priorities list.



threpwood,

is there anything else I should know about the mishap before I proceed, e.g., miles driven (correlates to the quantity of gas replaced and replenished), possibility of LLC introduced by you into the fuel tank, etc....


Onward to the truth!!!!

[threpwood]

That's a good point, but good thing I've never stock any coolant as I've never felt the need to buy it so that rules it out.

Potassium is a mystery because I agree that it's not in WW MSDS, but it does listed Molybdenum. Another mystery is that there's no sodium for Molybdenum to bind with. I also checked the MSDS for the Redline S-1, but there's nothing there to relate to the analysis other than the alcohols.

http://www.redlineoil.com.au/Uploads/Downloads/MSDS%20SI-1%20Euro%207_01.pdf

The boxs runs perfectly now so that's the most important. I guess time will tell because if the stuff comes from gasoline, the boxs will have same problem again in possibly 9 months of time (I still fill up gas from the same gas station).

Originally Posted by MNBoxster

What is the possibility that the same was done with Coolant, perhaps even with no cognitive knowledge or memory of it?

[threpwood]

Well, I think I put new gas in when the tank was like 80% or so. Only a few times I put new gas in when the tank was almost empty like 95%. If the culprit is the WW or coolant, this pattern could explain the 9 months period since it may stay dormant at the bottom of the fuel tank.

I usually put new gas in once every 3 weeks. So that makes it roughly about 12-15 visits to the gas station over 9 months.

If you have the time to do the experiment (with WW or just coolant) and willing to do it, please take pictures because I have seen in my own eyes how the gel reacts with the gasoline (the porsche mechanic showed me a bottle of gasoline with the gels, which was later sent to the lab).

Originally Posted by boxsterz

threpwood,

is there anything else I should know about the mishap before I proceed, e.g., miles driven (correlates to the quantity of gas replaced and replenished), possibility of LLC introduced by you into the fuel tank, etc....


Onward to the truth!!!!

[MNBoxster]

Originally Posted by boxsterz

WOW. I am astounded.

How in the world did you miss the 7.6% Molybdenum??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_molybdate ?
It' in BOTH the WW and the jelly.
Onward to the truth!!!!

Hi,

It is? It seems to me that Water Wetter's MSDS states that it contains Sodium Molybdate, an inorganic salt made up of 2 atoms of Sodium, one atom of Molybdenum and 4 atoms of Oxygen in it's anhydrous state (add .2H²O for it's dihydrous state) = Na2MoO4 or Na2MoO4 . H²O, rather than pure molybdenum (Mo).

If the alleged resultant gel was the product of the breakdown of this molecular compound, the % of molybdenum would be considerably lower since molybdenum makes up only 14% of this compound which constitutes only 2-10% of Water Wetter - we wou7ld expect amounts in the 1%-1.7% range . If there is more in the Spectral analysis, where did it come from? You cannot point only to the mere presence of Molybdenum and say "There you go..." - you need to validate the amount, especially if the analysis shows a greater quantity than is possible from your suspect additive. Where did all this excess Mo come from?

The Sodium (Na) (28% of the compound) is absent unless you want to make the case that it was transformed into Sodium Bicarbonate (Natrium - CAS# 144-55-8) if you can explain the process to me whereby the Sodium is not only released from the Na2MoO4, but also found the necessary Free Oxygen and Free Hydrogen to bond with.

Then, there is the presence of the other element - Potassium (Ka). It is present in a disturbingly large amount given the chemical makeup of your suspect substance - Water Wetter, which contains NONE - NADA, RIEN, NICHTS, ZILCH! Are you planning on totally ignoring this because it doesn't agree with your belief?

I am steadfast in my belief that you have inferred much, but proven nothing on your quest for Truth (at least the Truth as you see it).

FYI, I have emailed Red Line's Technical Department a 2nd time to repeat my initial request, but also fowarded an attached copy of the Spectral analysis as well. Hopefully they will respond shortly and put this to rest...

Happy Motoring!... Jim'99

Jimbo,

You said there wasn't any "any" (underlined, Your emphasis) Mo in the WW. You'd back peddle your way to Pluto if you could.



I have a GREAT idea:

------- How about you put a bottle of WW into YOUR fuel tank of YOUR boxster, since you are so sure of yourself-------- How about it Jimbo?


Put your money where your mouth is. I'll PAY YOU to leave it in YOUR car and run it for 9 months. I have a feeling others would pay to see that too

Couldn't hurt right? Easy money for you, burn right up... No chance it would gel. No harm at all. Harmless. Impossible. LMAO

[Frodo]

I sort of figured this was where the discussion was going. I don’t think Jim’s going to try the suggested experiment with his own ride, nor do I think it’s reasonable to expect him to. If I had a .357 that I knew was unloaded, I’d still never point it at my head and pull the trigger. I don’t think he has stated (or even implied) that it’s impossible that the WW caused the problem, only that evidence to this point has not established that connection. And while I wouldn’t knowingly pour the stuff in my tank, I tend to agree with him…

[Brucelee]

I am going to shut this down now.

When and if this issue is resolved technicaly, pls start a new thread and let us know.

I had asked for a higher level of discourse but one of you was not willing to drop the attitude.

Sorry but that's the deal.