It is coming 2019: Mission E

[BRAN]

Serial production 2019.
Starting price: 90.655,- €
600 hp
500km range
two different versions (later even different body versions)



Porsche will be the first german car maker to offer a wide range of e-cars --> 2023, 1/3 of all models will be electric

wow...

[MWS]

I'm always amazed at how quickly the paradigm shifts... It seems to perpetually jump in huge leaps and bounds, rather than the "SLOW march of progress".

The purpose of this post is not to debate the benefits of a SINGLE electric vehicle, but rather to address the the possibility of mass numbers (perhaps eventually, the majority) of vehicles being electric. The debate of how "green" electric vehicles actually are can be argued (the electricity must come from somewhere and the batteries are quite toxic), not to mention range, charge times, charge locations, etc.

As most of you know, at the inception of the automobile they were actually various competing power sources (steam, electric, gasoline), with gasoline eventually winning out, primarily due to "power per pound of fuel" coupled with manufacturing and many other factors. The single factor that led to the dominance of the internal combustion engine was not the engine itself, but the infrastructure that was developed (filling stations) that eventually drove out all other competition.

Given this, EV infrastructure is what actually concerns me. Public charging stations are relatively cheap to build, so I think these will appear very quickly, but what about the overall impact on the grid? We have an aging electric grid, and additionally, are currently running at near maximum output on also aging production equipment. How much more of a burden will we be placing if the majority of vehicles are trying to compete for this same resource?

Finally, back to the example of the infrastructure which led to internal combustion vehicles driving out competition, if we suddenly build a massive system for EV's, have we not just caused the same issue, and end up limiting the development of what (in my opinion) would be a far superior choice... Hydrogen power? After all, it's highly abundant, renewable, zero emission, refuels quickly, provides superior range and (with advancements in production) cheap. This is why I am concerned about flooding the market with a product that could end up delaying the advancement of what would appear to be a far support choice. Oh well, maybe next century.

Sorry for my rant.

[BRAN]

yup...


Dieselgate and politics were the accelerator...
But the real, MEGA challenge is industry 4.0 and the suppliers switching their port-folio fast enough.
Lots of jobs in the "old" industry will be lost...but on the other hand new (different) jobs will be created. There is no time to be lost...china will jump into those emerging e-markets as fast as possible. It is time to face the competition....SLOW march will put you in a "me-too" follower position.

[PaulE]

Companies will need to decide if they are in the personal vehicle business or the internal combustion automobile business. Are they Netflix of Blockbuster? Studebaker went from Connestoga wagons to automobiles before dying out to the Big 3. For most it will come down to range and refill time, and things will just trickle along (pun intended) until the chicken and egg dilemma starts to resolve. New York City announced it will build 50 fast charging electric car charging stations at a cost of $10 million. They will recharge current electric cars in 30 minutes. That's better but still too long.

For hydrogen to take off, I think the stumbling block is the amount of electricity it takes to separate the hydrogen from electrolysis of brine.

As long as we can drive it, instead of program it to take us somewhere, it will all be good!

[10/10ths]

...they can pry my 2004 Boxster S 50 years of 550 Spyder Edition from cold, dead, fingers.

[MWS]

For hydrogen to take off, I think the stumbling block is the amount of electricity it takes to separate the hydrogen from electrolysis of brine.

Bet it's less than powering a world of EV's.

As long as we can drive it, instead of program it to take us somewhere, it will all be good!

Oh that's coming faster than I bet we can imagine. My concern (other than the obvious), is to paraphrase what Jeremy Clarkston once said...."soon the morality of decisions will be left to the car rather than the driver...what if a fatal situation is unavoidable? The car will decide who to kill...the driver or the pedestrian." Yikes, yuck, and other forum acceptable expletives.

[thstone]

I am hesitant to believe all of the hype.

Mass adoption of electric cars has been two years away every year for the last 10 years and there doesn't appear to be any significant change any time soon.

Ford can't give away Bolt's (only sold 12K thus far in 2017) despite its 230 mile range, under $30K price, and the fact that they drive great (yes, I drove one and seriously considered it for my wife).

For 2017, the total market for EV's is forecast 200K out of a total of 17 million vehicles or 1.3% of the market (and this includes plug in hybrids). Remove hybrids (1.0%) and the pure EV market is 60K vehicles or 0.3% of total sales.
Tesla has only sold around 25K cars (Model S + Model X) so far this year. Based on the press they receive, you'd think that they sold 1M+ cars. And based on their market cap, you'd think that they sold 10M+ cars.

For comparison, Toyota is on track to sell about 320,000 Camry's this year.

Looking long term, the Union of Concerned Scientists best case forecast is EV sales reaching 10% of the total sales by 2025 and that highly optimistic number probably can't be achieved unless something substantial happens to vastly increase EV sales.

So sure, Porsche can compete with Tesla to sell as many $90,000+ sedans as the market will bear but that won't drive mass market adoption or make hardly any difference in EV total market share.

Unless the Tesla Model 3 changes everything.

[kk2002s]

I have to cynically suspect the push to electric cars, instead of other options, is all about $$$$ for all with our beloved politicians in the back pockets helping drive this with tax incentives.
As said, the Grid is not ready to support this. Our power plants are not ready (Maybe we bring back on line all those retired coal plants)
I can see electric cars as a good 2nd car option, expensive but makes sense as they have time to recharge. I am seeing more and more Teslas so there seems to be a high end market, not so much lesser priced e-cars.

When I think e-cars I think back to a youth soccer tournament and the owner of a Tesla from New York (90 miles away) walking all around the vast fields with a charging extension cord over his shoulder looking desperately for an electric plug.

It reminds me of the airport boarding gates and every electric plug surrounded by cell phones and laptops charging away.

[Anker]

Originally Posted by thstone

Ford can't give away Bolt's (only sold 12K thus far in 2017) despite its 230 mile range, under $30K price, and the fact that they drive great (yes, I drove one and seriously considered it for my wife).

Not surprising, since the Bolt is a Chevrolet! And, by the way, Bolt sales are increasing rapidly!

[Traco]

The impact of Irma in Florida creates and interesting EV scenario. Granted Tesla extended range by 30/40 miles but what then? Power is still intermittent in Naples and it will be close to 2 weeks since impact this coming weekend.

There were gas shortages and problems but people managed to scrimp and get by. How can you do that if the grid goes down for a period of time.

Look at Peurto Rico at the moment. They could be 6 months before full capacity restored.

I'm not anti EV at all but it does create interesting scenarios. Electricity isn't as easily and cost effectively stored and transported so that presents a new set of problems.

Realistically EV's need to be as light and frill free as possible, efficiency becomes key and is the consumer willing to sacrifice such luxuries to attain maximum efficiencies??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Qmulus]

It will be interesting to see what Porsche does. I personally I like the idea of electric cars as one would suit all my needs 99+% of the time. That <1% is when I need to travel long distances in a day, or travel to somewhere where overnight charging might be an issue, like camping. I can't say that I see electric cars as driving "enthusiast" cars, but perhaps Porsche can change that. To me, I like the sound, especially of the flat six in the Boxster, as well as an engine torque curve that increases with RPM, which is quite the opposite of electric motors. Everyone that I know that has driven an electric car has been very impressed, including a couple of friends who are old American muscle car fanatics. One of them bought a Bolt for his wife and it shares the garage with a 800whp twin turbo Corvette and a tweaked Audi S4.

I don't get the concerns people have with charging times. The ONLY time that I might care about that is on a long trip, which is very rare, where I would want to charge during the trip. Then you would have to wait a half hour every four to five hours. Normally, I would just do my trips during the day and plug in at home every night, just like I do with my cell phone. I think the mistake people make is thinking that you drive an electric car until it is discharged all the way, then recharge, like you would with a gas car. Charging at home is so easy that you can always top off. Of course if you live in a city and park on the street, I could see issues, but for most people I think an electric car would suit all their needs.

I say keep an open mind on electrics. There are many people that have been great critics until they actually used one, then ended up eating their words. I would love to have a Tesla Model S P100D in the garage next to my Boxster and Jeep Grand Cherokee (Hemi powered). They would all have their place.

[TripleTrophy]

Personally, I can see an electric car in my future, for city driving. My Macan sucks great gobs of gas in stop and go driving, and the manual Boxster is a pain in the left knee in that kind of traffic. However, I am fortunate that a) I have a house and b) my garage is already wired for 40A 230V (welding hobby).

I attended a talk on the electrical system (Ontario, with some focus on Toronto), and the grid is a major issue. Evidently the system in Toronto can handle about three electric vehicles per sub transformer, before they need to upgrade the transformers and grid. Humans being humans do not charge overnight, they charge when they get home from work, during peak demand time, in case they want to go out at night. Then I consider the mass number of condos and apartment buildings (Toronto and vicinity probably have more than most areas) that do not have charging stations in the garage. For a 200 unit building (not all that uncommon) it would probably run $5,000 per charging station, plus a transformer upgrade, so say $1-1.5MM to provide charging for everyone in the building. I wonder who will pick those costs up? Areas with street only parking are another issue. Public charging is probably a convenience for when you are out and about, but for daily/weekly charging they would become an inconvenience fairly quickly.

I am curious to see how the Mission E turns out though.