IMS Bearing -- Be careful when specifying a replacement
 

Specifying "LN" is not enough!

Make sure that when you have an IMS replacement bearing installed that your shop installs the updated bearing from LN Engineering. The "Classic Single Row," which I was surprised to learn is still sold, has a 4 year, 50k mile service life. The newer upgraded part, the "Single Row Pro" has a 6 year, 75k mileservice life. The "Pro" was introduced circa 2013-14. They both have the same retail price.

According to LN, the reason they continue to sell the Classic is that some (many?) shops want to continue using their existing installation tools and not make the outlay on new tools.

I knew enough to specify that i wanted an LN bearing installed. I didn't know that two versions of that bearing that fit my engine were being sold and installed, and that one was markedly inferior to the other.

The "Classic" that fits my engine has a part number of 100124200
The Single Row Pro has a part number of 106-08.2.2

If you go to the LN web site you come away with the impression that all you need to do is decide whether or not to spend the $ for their "Solution" product or just decide on LN and have your shop decide on the right part for your specific engine. Single or Dual row bearing, notably. Not a mention on that page that the "Classic" is still being sold and installed. In fact, if you go to the LN site and search for "Classic Single Row" the only hit you get is for a tool to install that product. You get no hits when searcing for the classic product by part number either (although that could be a function of how they format it). But its as if LN doesn't want consumers to know the old product exists and is still being sold.

Not a happy camper -- with either the shop that installed it or the company that made it.

Carlos

2003 Boxster S

You may be correct to be unhappy that you did not ask the correct questions of the shop that did the installation, but LN sells what their customer's (primarily installers) want and ask for. Yes, a lot of shops do not want to pop for the Faultless Tools, which is to their and their customer's detriment as the Faultless Tool make every install quicker and less problem prone, particularly on single row cars. We have both tool sets, and the one everyone in the shop reaches for is the Faultless Tool, it is that much better.

In a partial defense, I thought I had done my homework. From the LN site it seemed that there was just one bearing that would fit my car (other than the "Solution"). It was either a single row or a double row LN bearing, depending on my engine. Little did I know that LN was building the Classic on special order and had no mention of them on their website. Thus I felt safe in just specifyng "LN"

On a related question, in a conversation with LN I learned that I should have had a sticker applied attesting to the install having been performed. It's nowhere on my car. What should I ask of my installer? Would you view this as a concern?

Carlos

I have heard of the stickers being put in several different locations. Call and ask the shop. Mine is on the driver's door. It was also clearly/fully documented on my invoice.

If there is no sticker, do you really have any proof of what was (or wasn't) installed? Do you have a legitimate warranty?
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02/ims1492043023.jpg

It doesn't help that Porsche has multiple generations nor that LN has multiple products for some generations and with similar names. SKU is the identifier you are looking to ask for, the stock keeping unit or product number.

A shop that has invested hundreds of dollars in tools is reluctant to replace them. No kidding.

But this thread is a useful reminder that you have to be very specific when asking for something. Reminds me I owe my landscaper a written specification before he does his work so we both know what we expect.

At the time it was installed as part of an engine replacement my shop said that since it was just a 30 day warranty it wasn't worth the trouble of registering the warranty To the best of my knowledge all I have is a receipt from my shop with the part number written in as part of the invoice. Clearly I need to talk to my shop, but was curious as to how the community views my lack of documentation. I sent them an email at the end of the day and will call them tomorrow

In the OPs defence, every Porsche enthusiast is aware of the imsb issue. Most even know that LN is the go-to brand for a replacement. Some know that there are different flavors of imsb, pro, solution, etc. Not too many are aware that there is still the single row "classic" bearing still offered by LN ( and apparently sold by Pelican?) which may be installed by your shop. Not that there is anything wrong with that bearing actually. But, as always, it's a case of caveat emptor.

It is the only visible confirmation of the install on the car, I would say it is very important.

Except that its service life is only2/3 that of the comparably priced Pro version.

And I've already stated that I thought I had covered my bases by only specifying LN when their web site made no mention of the classic still being sold

My LN sticker is on the drivers door. LN sends a sticker set to the installer along with the IMSB. One of the stickers is returned to LN with the install info and the other is placed on the car.

Prior to purchase, I confirmed with LN that my PO had a LN single row classic installed on my 2004 986 in 2016 per the LN serial number on my door sticker (I also have the shop invoice - $799 for the classic IMSB). Many shops that don't want to spend the money for the faultless tool opt to install the LN ceramic single row. I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that I have the classic single row. If I decide to keep the 986 for the long term, I'll probably have 'the solution' installed at the next clutch change, but I'm not worried about the longevity of the classic single row in the least. I knew of the LN 'pro' and 'classic' offerings due to my research prior to purchase. The only reason I will go with the 'solution' the next time around (if I still have the car in 4 years) is because it is a 550 Anniversary Edition in excellent condition.

I would definitely demand proof of install and the LN serial number from your installer. It's SOP to supply this info to the client after the install and IMHO it is suspect that your car does not have the sticker w/serial number.

Your situation appears to stem from a lack of information / feedback / guidance provided to you by your installer rather than any misdirection by LN. LN is very clear in their literature regarding the Classic vs Pro (or at least they were when I did my research in Jan 2017).

I have the LN sticker on the edge of my drivers door (similar to 78F350's photo) and also there should be a sticker on the shop/installers invoice. It seems very strange if you do not have them - LN make this a very important part of the IMS replacement process.

I'm not disputing that LN was very clear in their instructions to the installer regarding the IMS bearings. But I still disagree with LN holding themselves out as the brand name to ask for while not making it clear to the ultimate consumer that simply asking for an LN bearing was not necessarily going to get them the advertised product.

That will be part of my discussion with the shop today

Hi Carlos, I understand your frustration. Out of curiosity I just checked the LN website and current product PDF. While the LN product page and PDF no longer have a picture of the classic IMSB or show it in the products for sale as they did in January 2017, it is still listed on both their website and in the PDF - "Also available (not shown) Classic Single Row IMS and 06-08 IMS upgrade".

Good luck with your discussion with the shop that did the install, I hope they can at least assure you have a real LN bearing and that it can still be registered with LN.

+1 My sticker is on the inside of the rear trunk lid and one on the actual shop invoice.

If I were is your position I would feel the same way. IMHO, this falls on your shop. Based on what your posting, I am guessing it is not on the approved list of installers. Thanks for posting this.

Seriously?:confused:

These intervals that they put on those parts are interesting. Guess my factory original IMS on my 01 has the longer service interval IMS installed. Cool!

Only relevant compared to the 6 year 75k service life of the bearing that could have been installed

I disagree. The shop did as they were told - they installed an LN bearing just like the customer asked.
In the vast majority of shops, clients go in and ask them to replace the brakes, or change the oil. No where does the shop ever check into what oil the client wants or what pads to use....most just use the oem recommended.
If you want something specific, you have to ask for it.

I'll say it again...Seriously?:confused::confused::confused:

6 years? That's absurd...Didn't realize that, and I have the LN IMSB installed, and most likely, not this "extended life" version, if that's what you want to call it...

OK, this needs to be put in perspective as there appears to be problems both with the shop and the owner.

The shop did not do what I would call a complete customer information session; when we get such a request, the first thing we want to make sure is that the customer knows what retrofit kits are available, and the relative advantages of each. Second, when installed, we put the exact model bearing that was used and its unique serial number on the invoice. We also never let one out the door without the door jamb sticker with the serial number. So I would say that the shop did not do everything they should have.

At the same time, however, it does not appear clear that the owner specifically asked for the single row Pro bearing. If he did, and the shop did not have the Faultless Tool, they would have had to say no to the job, or refer him elsewhere.

Blaming the outcome on LN seems mildly ridiculous.

Disagree. I go to a shop to get advice. When I specified an LN bearing they, who have more experience and information, could easily have taken the time to lay out my options. They did this when I asked about a water pump with a metal impeller.

Tell me why you think this service life recomendation is absurd.

Technically, I don't think the shop is in the wrong because you didn't specify you wanted a specific type of LN Bearing. If the shop knows they don't have the upgraded tooling to install the Pro model, they won't come out and tell you that option cause you only specified a LN. Is it totally honest, no- but let's be realistic...not everyone is, and they have to make money. It's like asking a dealer to use Mobil 1 to change your oil. If you don't specify 0w-40, they can fill with Mobil 5w-50 if they got that in stock for cheap, and still would've followed your orders.

Do you have a right to be upset though?- yes, but you're part to blame too for finding out the difference after the fact. The shop's job is to complete jobs, not consult you for the best option necessarily. Would it be nice if they did?...yeah

If my clutch is still good at 50k, I am definitely not having enough fun.

I agree that the failure is ultimately at my feet. But for a civilian I still think that I did my homework and deserved a different outcome.

Every wear part has its limits. LN is specific in its recommendations on who should use their $800 part and who should consider their part that is more expensive. And a part that lasts 6 years is probably within the limits of clutch life too. So that is quite a reasonable target.

LN has produced multiple versions at multiple price points. Just like Porsche and their cars. The market dictates. Be grateful for their continued investment in your future.

And distributors have old parts in the pipeline. LN doesn't sell directly.

And shop owners have limits to their spending. Unless they are big and established and so know that they can amortize the cost of a tool upgrade over many many uses.

By all means, specify by SKU. By all means, ask what tools the shop has and instructions the shop will follow. Remember this ad: An informed shopper is our best customer.

Spot on. All our buying guides and brochures still list the part since it's still available. We push updates to our site and from time to time, a part gets deactivated if there is no stock. Probably what happened with the classic Single Row. People then try to buy it when we don't actually have it.

We do not stock the classic Single Row IMS Retrofit on our shelves at LN. They are special order for the wholesale accounts only (SSF, IMC) who sell them to shops. They have to order them in large quantities and wait 10-12 weeks for them. As such, the retail price point and cost to the shops for the classic single row is actually much higher than the Single Row Pro for the reason the wholesalers have greater carrying costs and we make them in lower volumes.

In all fairness to LN, we ran many promotions over the years to shops to help subsidize tooling cost and even then, the profit they make on one job will cover the cost of the tool and then some in its first use. You can only lead a horse to water.

All we can do is try our best to educate everyone, but even then, we still have shops not qualifying jobs and putting bearings into engines that need to be torn down. Then it's our fault when they need a new engine.

I agree, you do deserve a better outcome, especially since it appears the shop didn't even provide the door jamb sticker that they should have to evidence the installation. You picked the wrong installation shop unfortunately, it seems. Did they respond favorably to your complaint?

Thanks Charles - previous customer here - I have a 2001 986S that is going on the lift later this week and will need an IMS update. I'll be calling to discuss the options once I have the existing bearing type identified. As part of my due diligence, I read thru the information on your site and the companion site IMS 101 – IMS Retrofit -
I found just about everything I needed therein.

The one thing I would like to find, and I'm going to have to start looking, is somewhere to rent the faultless install tool :)

Keep up the good work!

Bullshyt

A good shop absolutely should be recommending and discussing with you the options and what they feel is the best option for your needs

They should tell you exactly what they will be doing and what parts they will be using. Using your example of an oil change, they must ask and let you know the options and what oil they will be putting in

The ultimate decision is yours, not the shop

Case in point
I just had a torn CV boot and my mechanic gave me 3 options
1- replace the boot and rebuild the CV
2 - replace the axle with an aftermarket one
3 - replace the axle with a factory one

He gave me the costs ans well as the pros and cons of each choice and I decided on how I would spend my $$

No, your whole assumption is that he went to a good shop. If so, then yeah, those things apply. The shop still did install a LN bearing as instructed. It just didn't act as a good shop in good faith to ask him if he wanted the pro bearing installed.

Why do the ceramic bearings only have either a 50k or 75k service life?

I think LN had to draw the line somewhere-they and Flat 6 Innovations came up with an aftermarket repair for and OEM design prone to failure. Not all OEM IMSBs fail, many go well over 100,000 miles without issue. But even though the LN units are ceramic and open, they still rely on splash lubrication and nothing lasts forever.

This thread got me thinking about my own IMSB replacement. I went back to my files and saw that I discussed this with my indie back in 2014. The single row pro was about $400 more and I went with it.

CBonilla, while it sucks to find out that you got a single row replacement, I think it is still way better than OEM. Thanks for bringing this up for those who may be contemplating an IMSB replacement.

Yes, when you ASKED them about a water pump, they discussed it with you. In this case though, it sounds like you went to the shop and said hey, install an LN bearing. So they did. Not much to discuss - maybe they didn't even know there were multiple options themselves? You didn't know, maybe they didn't either.

Here is how my shop responded. I'd welcome your informed views

Basically, the tool that LN Engineering sells you to install the “superior” bearing is not very good (and yes, we do have the newer bearing tool). We have installed a couple of the “Single Row Pro” kits on cars and had some issues with the tool and fitment in which we didn’t feel comfortable with either the installation process or with that tool. Additionally, there is a very fine (thin) lock ring wire which that tool installs with the bearing that is impossible to tell if it has seated properly. The bearing may have more load capacity and a longer service interval but if it doesn’t install correctly that really won’t matter. We like and trust LN Engineering and their products as theirs is the only replacement IMS bearing that we will sell and install. The “Single Row Classic” bearing is of a better design and material than the stock bearing and we feel it will go farther than the suggested 4yrs, 50,000 miles given the fact that there are a larger percentage of cars on the road still with the stock single row bearing that have exceeded that mileage range and time window without failures. We feel that the suggested time and mileage from LN Engineering is to their benefit, same goes for the limited warranty. ... I might add that most, if not all, Porsche dealerships won’t install that bearing either choosing instead to install Porsche’s own bearing which is of the single row design.

I chose to raise the missing sticker in my response to this email, so it could not have been addressed here

Thanks for posting their response. So basically, they acknowledge that the Pro bearing is more durable, but they don't feel comfy installing it. Other shops seemingly can install it though. Interested to hear if they say it was hard for them to install the sticker too.

I find that response difficult to process. We also have both tools, and quite plainly have never had any issues using it on any of the LN bearing styles. The Faultless Tool is just that; it is so much better than using a dead blow hammer to try and drive in a refrigerated bearing, and never ends up cocking the single row bearings. It is also the only tool that can install the Pro bearing without potentially damaging the unit. As for knowing if the lock ring on the Pro bearing is seated, that also has never been an issue as you can hear the ring click into place, and we also mark the inner shaft for the expected install depth before starting the install, so there is also a visual confirmation as well.

As mentioned earlier, given a choice, all the techs in the shop will reach for the Faultless tool over the original IMS tool kit, because it is easier, quicker, and simply does a better job every time.

This car is a tip