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I'll just leave this right here......
The mid-engine Chevrolet Corvette has been caught once again, this time testing alongside its high-performance front-engine stablemate, the ZR1. We’ve seen both upcoming cars before, but this is the first time we’ve seen them together. These are also the best shots we’ve seen so far of the mid-engine ‘Vette.
Spied! Mid-Engine Chevrolet Corvette Caught Winter Testing With ZR1 - Motor Trend |
Unfortunately, American build quality still leaves something to be desired, so while this will have loads of power, and might actually go round a corner, still no match for its German sports car competition.
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These mags have the worst spies. I have lived in the Detroit metro area most of my life and have been to the Milford proving grounds and the Ford Rotunda track and have been for a spirited spin on the small track at the Chrysler tech center etc.. These are not some top secret facilities and if you know a few of the prototype shops around here they are even less secret. I have even drove some cars 3 years before they came out at the auto show. These are GM leaked photos as anyone who actually wanted to see that car or its components already would be able to.
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Better get used to it, grand emperor supreme doesn't like cars built elsewhere. All us Porsche folks may have to learn to love a corvette if we want something European, at least without a huge tax, in a few years. |
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Please, stay on topic - What do you think of the mid-engined Corvette? |
In regards to the mid-engined Corvette, I think that it will be underwhelming.
GM, like Porsche and the 911, has had 50 years to evolve and perfect the Corvette's front-engine configuration. I doubt that they have the engineering talent to create a world-class mid-engined sports car straight out of the box. Maybe they'll prove me wrong? On the other hand, Porsche has had a 20-year head start designing mid-engined sports cars with the Boxster/Cayman and the mid-engined 911 is already designed and being tested: http://986forum.com/forums/zuffenhausen-lounge-happy-hour-after-17-00-somewhere/65197-pics-911rsr-mid-engine.html |
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I think it'll be okay if it's all we can buy. I'd rather a gt350 though. Besides I never said I don't or do like the guy, just facing the facts of how some policy may affect the automotive world and that's relevant and capable of being discussed without too much underwear knotting. |
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And remember, one of the worst blow-ups that we've ever had on this forum started with what the author thought to be an innocent post about a cat... :) |
I think it's a good thing. GM brings great perf/power/price packages in their Corvette, and pushing the bar higher is always good for competition. Besides, just because it's a US firm doesn't mean it can't hire engineers that used to work for other car companies to get the expertise they need to make a great sports car. I welcome it, and hope it turns out to be a great mid-engined sports car. As for build quality, a lot of German cars are already built in the US by Americans. I don't see why they can't make a great car.
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One thing I agree with is that domestic manufacturers can't seem to make a car that feels like a German car or most Euro cars. The reason for that is that most Corvettes are sold in automatic to a 60+ year old guy who will never see a track session so why build it for that when he will just complain about how bumpy it already rides. The said consumer also doesn't care that it clunks when you shut the doors and just could not understand what the difference is in a solid built car. Most magazines always compare the Vette to Euro sports cars but I just don't see them being for the same market. The buyers of said cars are usually 2 completely different people and not too many cross over to the other side. Just because a car has 2 seats (practical seats) and goes around a track at comparable times does not mean it was intended for the same market. I have a feeling that the mid engine Vette will be more of a Viper, Ford GT type car while the Vette goes on in traditional form. |
Slamming American engineering is ridiculous. For all intents and purposes, a Corvette is as quick as a 911 for a lot less money, and it's probably a lot less expensive to maintain, as well. Do you expect the Ford GT will be a bad car?
I recently had a base model Camaro as a rental car, and it not only would smoke my Boxster in a straight line, it would out-handle it as well, all season tires and all. I realize this is a Porsche forum, but let's not get too far away from reality! |
I'm excited to see GM moving forward with a mid-engined Corvette. Considering the shrinking market for sports cars (have you seen recent Boxster and Cayman sales figures) I am glad any manufacturer is willing to spend money on developing a mid-engined car.
Yes it will be American and not German. Each has there pros and cons and I'm not worried about GM not being able to engineer a great car if they put there minds to it. I personally prefer German cars but I'm just glad someone is willing to spend the resources to do it a car like this. Better then another crossover vehicle. |
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That being said, I am no Porsche fanboy. Porsche has had their share of engineering issues over the years...and I'm not just talking about the IMS issues. Crappy interiors? Anyone remember what was said about the early 986 /996 interiors? They were a huge drop in quality compared to the 993. Most Corvettes will be sold with automatics...really? What the hell do you think Porsche (and Ferrari, and McLaren and so on) is putting in all their cars? It sure isn't a manual transmission. In fact, I dare say you can get a manual more easily in a Corvette than you can in a 911. Build quality? Really? Since the water cooled era Porsche's have been built to a price. Don't talk about "door clunking" until you compare the door closing on my 1976 911S to that of a new Porsche. My '76 clunk will bring tears to your eyes. Even my '74 914 has a better "door clunk" than many 986/996's I've looked at or owned. I've never owned a Corvette. However, I'm getting close. The new Corvette is a helluva a machine for the price. For that matter, so is the new Mustang. My oldest son bought a new one with the V6. With the new IRS, it handles great and will smoke an older 996 while getting better gas mileage. The car world is changing.... |
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Getting back to the thread, I hope the new corvette is a winner. Be interested to see what it looks like when in production. Probably will never buy one, but nice to see them go in a mid-engine direction. |
Edit: there you go, now that's a proper roadster
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1485881295.jpg |
The difference between a Porsche and a Corvette owner and build reliability...
If one of our Porsche engines so much as hiccups, we'll shut it down on the side of the road, flatbed it home, Google it, write up a forum post to get everyone's opinion about what's wrong, lose sleep, get opinions from three different indy shops, wring our hands and worry for days that the engine is ready to self destruct. If a Corvette engine hiccups, the first thing the owner will do is rev it to redline, dump the clutch and lay 300 feet of rubber to see if it cures itself. Problem solved. :D |
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Something something most GMs will run poorly longer than other cars will run... ;) Friends with American cars had fewer issues than I ever had with any of my German cars (Boxster excepted). The 964 and W124 need more work just due to their age and mileage. When I went through my last jaunt into the new car world, I bought an American-built Japanese car (first for both aspects for me). Overall, my Boxster has been a huge step in durability/quality/reliability over any previous VW I had. Can't wait to see if this is actually going to be a Corvette or somehow will be a halo car for Cadillac (or both). |
Is mid engine the next frontier for American performance cars that care about ultimate performance?
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With that being said, all I was saying is that I doubt GM's ability to create a world class car out of the box on Version 1.0. My thinking was that it will likely take them an iteration or two before they really get it right because of their inexperience with the mid-engined platform. Its not that I consider GM engineers to be stupid or dumb or bad engineers, just inexperienced with the mid-engine platform. I went on to say that the reason that I believe Porsche to be ahead in the mid-engine game is because of their 20-year head start with the Boxster/Cayman. I'd suggest that it also took Porsche 2-3 iterations to get it right. The 986 Boxster was a great first try but certainly not a perfect car by any means whereas the Cayman GT-4 is considered by some to be one of the greatest mid-engined sports cars. In regards to Ford, the GT was a great car out of the box, so American engineering can certainly do the job! But the 2005/2006 Ford GT was a halo car that listed around $150,000 (or $185K in today's dollars). Unfortunately, the mid-engine Corvette isn't going to be able to command a price anywhere near $185K so it will be full of engineering and materials compromises in order to meet the $80K price point. And just for reference, the new 2016 Ford GT lists at $450,000 so its mostly irrelevant to this discussion. The question is whether GM can design and build a car as good as the Cayman GT-4 (which lists for around $85K) for a slightly lower price (around $80K)? Honestly, I hope GM proves me wrong. |
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Of course it matters, the new market affects the used market, if new Porsches are priced out of the market then you can bet old ones will go up in value but it definitely is relevant in relation to a new mid engine corvette as in this case we're speaking of the competition for the American auto industry and the possibly lack thereof matters significantly. |
I have to admit, the mid-engine C8 does not look anything like a Corvette. It looks more Ferrari / Lambo ish. I'm curious how they are going to incorporate the styling cues into that shortened nose.
I'm really excited to see Detroit get back in the game. it's really exciting for all of us enthusiasts, even if we prefer the Euro models. |
Priced a 718 recently? The base I looked at last week had a $72k+ sticker and was pretty bare bones. My 718 build would exceed $97k.
I drove several vettes before I bought my first Boxster. An entirely new configuration would be an opportunity to get a lot of things done differently that made me pass on the vettes. Weight and build quality. My bet on the Zora's price would be $135k+. Think 911T, NSX, GT40 territory. |
Its the age old battle. At the end of the day I think most people are brand loyal....always wanted one or the other. At least I've never seriously looked at a Corvette. If they got rid of the giant bowtie logo it might help :) I couldn't take that :)
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I'll be honest with you, I looked at a 2016 Stingray and I thought it was too heavy, too big/long, and not as nimble as the Boxster. Of course it will blow my doors off, but in daily traffic, I think I'd stick with my Box. I never felt so much joy during a daily commute!!! lol
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The 2017 911 RSR is going mid-engine. Won't be long before the street version goes mid too
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I hope the C8 is offered with a V6 option and 6MT. A Boxster S replacement.
Sacrilege I know but the GM V6 is good for well over 300 hp. Where can you safely and legally use 400++ hp (V8)on public roads? And maybe the engine access with a V6 would be easier, and the cooling and the lighter weight and.... |
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I drove a 997 GT-3 (425hp) and the power was kind of useless on the street and freeways. By the time I got into 3rd gear, I had to lift to avoid killing myself or someone else. Sure, I could race around in 2nd, but it was kind of overkill. On the street, I think that 300-350hp is about all that's needed for more fun than your driving license can probably withstand. :) |
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Try a full throttle freeway merge in a 500hp car - it is not fun.It is terrifying because no other driver is moving(or thinking) fast enough. And the insurance premium.... |
Lately i've driven a Jaguar XK, because it seems i'm looking for a new ride. The N/A with 385 hp and the compressor with 510 hp. The car is bigger and weights much more than a 986.
But it wasn't only the hp. It was the torque that was fun in the compressor. Felt like a hot rod. Shure you'll be to fast in no time and traction is a problem if it's not dry. But a 5 litre engine with a compressor is just fun. Honestly the 385 hp version is fast enough. But the 510 hp version makes you smile every second you pet the gas pedal of the cat. ;) Regards, Markus |
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They are very difficult to sell used here. Often takes many months and lots of discounts.And if they have had any accident damage repair work that causes other issues because of the aluminum/adhesive construction. So if you are patient and really know actual completed sales prices from a Dealer auction you can find an amazing bargain. But find a local Jag Indie first - you will be 'married' to him for technical service! Lots of German components on that car = you will be in familiar circumstances. |
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Look, here is your quote: "Better get used to it, grand emperor supreme doesn't like cars built elsewhere. All us Porsche folks may have to learn to love a corvette if we want something European,(did we ever put to rest whether or not your Boxster was German or Finnish?) at least without a huge tax, in a few years." My point was simply that your comment has nothing to do with cars and is all about trying to make a witty comment concerning politics. As others have commented, I would prefer this forum stick to guns and cats, if we are going to go off topic. Or, we could make the move to go to millennial humor as you (and your generation) provide us a rich source of material(s). ;) But getting back to the point I was making and you ignored: I stated, most people "here" buy used. Thus, I fail to see how there will be these huge taxes you propose on a "private sale" nor do I understand what "market" you think exists whereby people make car purchases and are swayed entirely based on "taxes". Is taxing "new" cars somehow trickling down to the "used car Market" or do you believe that people make choices entirely based on a taxation rate? You know, it is actually laughable as many people (in Utah) avoid the whole issue of taxes by creating a "phantom" LLC that exists in Montana, to avoid taxes, by registering the purchase of the car in Montana. Sure, you can get the Black license plate, and some would argue it is a "much" cooler plate, but nevertheless, people will ALWAYS find a way to avoid taxes. Personally, I would love to have a property in Nevada that I could "live" in just long enough so that I may file in a state that doesn't have a State income tax. But, you know what, haven't gone that far just yet. Edit: "Lest anyone think" Jake did his homework: http://rmautobuzz.com/many-vehicles-donald-trump-car-collection/ 1. Rolls-Royce 2. Chevy Camaro 3. Lamborghini Diablo 4. Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren 5. Cadillac Escalade 6. Tesla 7. Maybach (also used in his show the Apprentice, if memory serves) 8. Mercedes-benz S600 9. Ferrari 10. Cadillac Allante 11. Rolls-Royce 1950s Silver Cloud Yup, the President sure does love his American Cars. |
Glad to see they are making progress with this mid engine design. Read about it a couple years ago I think. What GM does well, is make great power on a very old but simple design.
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All Porsche gaga here but having seen the pics and reviews of the C8 only recently, me think this will sell by the thousands each months. Nice work from GM for sure (about time in fact)
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I'll just leave this right here......
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It was about cars and the vehicle on the market and the prices they may be bought at. Taxing euro imports affects maintaining our cars and people that currently own porsches buying new ones. The new car market greatly affects the used car market but in terms of this thread my comment is about the imaginative choice between a mid engine corvette and a 2020 Porsche 718. Not many here are in the market for a mid engine corvette but it's the topic of the thread and a relation to the new European car market at the time the corvette is on sale is a reasonable comment. I'm ignoring whatever you say about the president as that's aside from the general political atmosphere of restricted trade and tariffs, which is relevant as it affects Porsche particularly more than most any other company with them not having a single domestic manufacturing facility unlike other German manufactures. Porsches presence, at least at an uninflated price in the market place is POSSIBLY, just a simple possibility, coming to a close. This is a relevant topic in terms of imaginative future car purchasing. And yes the new car market greatly affects used cars especially if new cars leave the market all together due to a sale being unprofitable, it's an interesting topic to speculate on because if your 981 is one of the last Porsches in America period, it just maybeeeeee will have an affect on the cars value, or is that an absurd speculation. People can avoid a tax, companies do so by not selling cars in a country, I.e. The ford ranger, vw amorak. We can get political and talk about the affect of tariffs on the economy and vehicles on the market and gather data about quality from us manufactures as competition from Asian ones rose, or how many parts are imported that go into the production of cars that are built in America and the affects a tariff would have on their prices.... but that's all unrelated same as the presidents personal car collection (I watched American top gear, I know the guy likes euro cars as much as the rest of us but I also know he's strong arming BMW and other local manufactures for having some over seas operations.) Off topic conversations here are often on the topic of general automotive market, what's for sale at what price and what direction companies are going, hybrid, turbo, whatever. It's all common here and trade is relevant to these more than welcome topics. |
Whoa... lol... so much to process. Will give some cliff notes:
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Personally I think the new Vettes are pretty awesome. I don't think I will ever own one but America's finest sports car? Maybe so.
I seriously considered getting a C5 before the 98 Box but insurance rates on those looked like a house payment at the time. And the Boxster was just funner to drive. |
For the record, I too look forward to seeing the new Vette. Not saying I'd buy one, but I like to see that car continue to be made and improve. Maybe I'm atypical, but for me it isn't about buying a "mid engine" car, rather than what is it I like. Were I to trade in the Boxster, I'd probably go back to a 911. I really like the Targa, but it isn't about things like taxes, etc., that weigh heavily on me. Besides, I'd just trade in the car to the dealership anyway.
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edit: forgot, nothin political (deleted!)
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Yes! Cheap cars are fun (I have 3 lolll)
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I think ALL new Corvettes set a standard that makes other sports car companies crap their drawers.
I'm not in the market but I'd tip my hat everyday at what the cars offer and the bang for the buck. |
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