First time I heard of this theory... IMS

[Boxtaboy]

I haven't changed out the IMS, and won't. I already got my money's worth in the years I've had with my car, and if it goes, the whole car goes, and it's ok. It's served me really well so far, so no complaints. That's not to say this whole thing hasn't intrigued me...it's interesting reading all the theories which is why I posted the link to that guy's comments. What really interests me is how fellow Boxster owner MarcW from PedrosBoard can get over 300K miles now (and still going) on his 02 base 986 with his IMS and clutch still original. If there is an inherent problem with the IMS design, how can some not fail at all?...ever? Why don't they ALL fail if they are flawed? Why only 1% or 8% or whatever the number is? What about the other 92%?....those are unflawed?....

[356Guy]

It comes down to risk tolerance. Since there is no definitive cause/s the only prevention is some sort of replacement or upgrade program. Some people can sleep without having the upgrade done and others can't. I wish I were of the later type. I suppose many are oblivious to the issue which is even better. I'm trying to buy a car with the upgrade or at least one priced well enough that it makes sense to get it done. Its interesting to note that all the sellers I've communicated with so far don't believe the upgrade is necessary

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by 356Guy

Its interesting to note that all the sellers I've communicated with so far don't believe the upgrade is necessary

Probably because they personally have not experienced the loss associated with one failing. When you have to face an owner and tell them that they are facing spending more on his or her dream car than it is actually worth because of a failure, you begin to understand the reality of an IMS failure.

[jaykay]

I was an early adopter.....it's almost time to retro fit the dual row, retro fit if corrosive wear is an issue....Is it? Fresh Motul oil every winter storage; <5000km intervals. I am way under mileage wise.

IIRC one car in the facility undergoing the operation had a failed bearing come out while there...was able to play with failed bearings at the desk....it does happen.

The information I have for five chains: Driving style affects actuation of the vario cam solenoids which affects radial load the ims bearing. The load ramps up every time you drop below 3K as the solenoids phase the cams for low rpm operation. This increased cyclical load could contribute to other factors, precipitating a failure

[paulofto]

Nothing like an IMS or oil post. Over 30 entries in 24 hours!

Although it has been discussed in countless threads the IMS issue is always a good read.

BTW, had mine done at ~84,000KM (~52,000M) along with clutch, flywheel and RMS. The original bearing came out 100% fine but doing the work was the best peace of mind money can buy.

[jaykay]

Originally Posted by paulofto

Nothing like an IMS or oil post. Over 30 entries in 24 hours!

Although it has been discussed in countless threads the IMS issue is always a good read.

BTW, had mine done at ~84,000KM (~52,000M) along with clutch, flywheel and RMS. The original bearing came out 100% fine but doing the work was the best peace of mind money can buy.

......it is wintertime no one is out driving

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by jaykay

......it is wintertime no one is out driving

LOLOLOL I'll revise my "odds" mathematics... completely forgot about that

[mikefocke]

Originally Posted by 356Guy

It comes down to risk tolerance. ... Its interesting to note that all the sellers I've communicated with so far don't believe the upgrade is necessary

Now if I were selling a car and it didn't have something, what would I tell you about the importance of that something?

[boxxster]

Don't know if there is any truth to this, but I was told by a tech at the local porsche dealer that the m96 does not like to be stalled and that stalling these engines is hard on the IMS bearing. I forget how he explained it but essentially the more you stall your car the higher the chance of IMS failure. Again, I can't substantiate any of this, its just another theory (of many) that I've heard.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by boxxster

Don't know if there is any truth to this, but I was told by a tech at the local porsche dealer that the m96 does not like to be stalled and that stalling these engines is hard on the IMS bearing. I forget how he explained it but essentially the more you stall your car the higher the chance of IMS failure. Again, I can't substantiate any of this, its just another theory (of many) that I've heard.

There have been a lot of possible theories mentioned in this respect; low miles, lack of aggressive driving, running the engine at 3,200 to 3,400 RPM for prolonged periods, and so on. I'm not sure how pertinent any of these ideas really are, or how much data is available to support them.

As a technician, you learn not to place a lot of credibility in unconfirmed operating parameters, and to focus on identifiable or confirmable commonalities in failures, such as the difference in failure rates between the single and dual row units, or off center case openings, which were also a major issue in the early RMS failures on the M96.

[356Guy]

Originally Posted by Nine8Six

Also, Jeff, has anyone (or yourself personally) ever asked a Porsche Eng/official what could be the reason(s) behind the failure? ....

prohibited I would think

Originally Posted by mikefocke

Now if I were selling a car and it didn't have something, what would I tell you about the importance of that something?

Oh I get it

[Nine8Six]

...on a per year basis, your odds of dying in a vehicle crash would be somewhere in between 1 and 4,000 and 1 and 8,000. Currently, roughly 40,000 people per year die in car accidents in the United States.

I won't publish the odds of getting a bearing failure based on the numbers of 986/996 sold because some may feel embarrassed.

With that said, "have fun" and drive safely chaps

(and avoid motorcycle road racing if you can)

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Boxtaboy

I haven't changed out the IMS, and won't. I already got my money's worth in the years I've had with my car, and if it goes, the whole car goes, and it's ok. It's served me really well so far, so no complaints. That's not to say this whole thing hasn't intrigued me...it's interesting reading all the theories which is why I posted the link to that guy's comments. What really interests me is how fellow Boxster owner MarcW from PedrosBoard can get over 300K miles now (and still going) on his 02 base 986 with his IMS and clutch still original. If there is an inherent problem with the IMS design, how can some not fail at all?...ever? Why don't they ALL fail if they are flawed? Why only 1% or 8% or whatever the number is? What about the other 92%?....those are unflawed?....

The longer that the failures go on, the more is learned. Early on, no one had any idea what was going on, but much has be learned since then. Several things can potentially either be involved of at least contribute to the issue; suspects include everything from grease wash out to engine cases with off centerline flange bores, and even IMS shafts that wobble because they do not rotate around their true center lines. Contributing to the confusion are competing claims by firms with replacement components; one says it is the bearing itself, another says the bearing is fine, it is lubrication that is the main issue. Yet both can't possibly be right. If you were to step back and think about it, if lubrication was the issue, why don't dual row bearings fail more often than single rows? After all, dual rows have twice the bearing surface area of single rows, so poor lubrication should affect them more often than single rows. Yet published stats from the class action case say that single rows fail 8 to 10 times more often than dual rows. So what is really happening, and whom should you be listening to?

One of the largest contributors to the confusion is that too many accept a single cause on little more than blind faith, rather than stepping back and trying to assess all of the information that is available. The reality of the situation is that there are multiple contributing factors, and while some cars have none of them, while others are not so lucky. Having pulled a lot of IMS bearings, you learn that some come out looking like they are brand new, others with fewer miles on them come out so loose that they acutally rattle when you shake them. Shops that do large numbers of retrofits note some engines that seem to be able to kill just about any type of ball bearing replacements while other seem not to care what type is used. Jake has noted cases of a single engine with multiple failures, so their may be situations where no ball or roller bearing is going to survive because of either multiple causes, or situations such as engine cases with off center flange bores are difficult to spot and even harder to fix. Imagine having to tell an owner that the car he or she drove into your shop that was happily running has failed pre qualification, and that the reason is terminal, requiring an engine replacement.

To say that this is a complicated problem is in itself an over simplification.

[356Guy]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

.. Shops that do large numbers of retrofits note some engines that seem to be able to kill just about any type of ball bearing replacements while other seem not to care what type is used. ....

A buyers dilemma is how to figure out which one you are getting. (at least for low mileage cars)

ps as soon as I ask the sellers about the IMS they seem to lose interest. I'm assuming they have already dealt with inquiries from potential buyers on this.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by 356Guy

A buyers dilemma is how to figure out which one you are getting. (at least for low mileage cars)

ps as soon as I ask the sellers about the IMS they seem to lose interest. I'm assuming they have already dealt with inquiries from potential buyers on this.

Sellers seem to fall into two categories: Those that are aware of the issue, and those that are not. And you might be surprised how many fall into the later case. Sellers that have had an IMS retrofit also encounter resistance as well when they discover that some astute buyers look at their brand or type of retrofit as a detriment rather than a value adder. You can imagine how quickly their eyes glaze over when a prospective buyer resonds by telling them that they have heard that the styles or brand of retrofit they spent a couple thousand $ on is less than desirable. We have actually seen buyers tell sellers that they would only move forward if the seller dropped their asking price by an amount concomitant with redoing the exsisting retrofit with one they see as a better option. The only type of retrofit that seems immune to this second guessing is the IMS Solution.

[356Guy]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

...The only type of retrofit that seems immune to this second guessing is the IMS Solution.

Yes, it has become obvious that Boxsters around here seem hard to sell without an IMS upgrade which is a consideration when I buy because I don't keep cars long. Many if not most buyers now are enthusiasts and educated on the issue. The local shop quoted $4-5k to do the clutch and IMS. Its a tough sell on a $10-20k car that you just bought. I'll do it myself but it is still $4k in parts with the IMS Solution (I'm currently in the "IMS Solution is the best" camp too as I think AF bearings in an engine are just a bad idea.)

[10/10ths]

.....should not calculate the cost of ownership that way.

If you think about it in the terms of spending $4,000 on a $10,000 car, it seems apocalyptic.

But you just must not look at it in those terms.

You have to think about it as investing $14,000 in a world class, mid-engined, Flat-Six, dual trunk, convertible, baby exotic.

What other mid-engined convertible can you buy for that kind of money?

A Toyota MR Spyder, well.....sure.

You can't buy a Ferrari, or Lambo or R8 convertible for $14,000.

The cost of ownership INCLUDES an IMS Solution.

Just accept that.

It's just like buying a used Ferrari 308, you have to factor in the cost of engine removal for timing belt replacement. That's $15,000 on a $40,000 car.

The Boxster is not the only old sports car that has a huge "hidden" cost that many buyers don't know about.

I love my Boxster. I did my research. I bought her two years ago, a 2004 model, and I budgeted shipping her to Flat 6 Innovations to have Raby install the IMS Solution and a clutch and R&R other potential failure items.

It was just the cost of buying one of these in my mind.

And you know what? I'm thrilled. My wife and I have put 15,000 miles on her traveling all around the country on multiple awesome vacations in the past year.

I don't even remember what I paid for it all. The value remains, long after the price is forgotten.

She's my dream car. She's the exotic car I always wanted. Priceless.

[Dave80GTSi]

Originally Posted by 10/10ths

It's just like buying a used Ferrari 308, you have to factor in the cost of engine removal for timing belt replacement. That's $15,000 on a $40,000 car.

Not to quibble, but you do not need to pull the engine to swap the cam belts in a 308.

[paulofto]

Originally Posted by 10/10ths

It was just the cost of buying one of these in my mind.

And you know what? I'm thrilled. My wife and I have put 15,000 miles on her traveling all around the country on multiple awesome vacations in the past year.

Excellent point. It is part of the cost of ownership. I bought mine 3 years ago and have made several great trips including the Black Hills in 2015 and B.C. in 2016. These cars are worth keeping them running properly and addressing any issues because they are a blast to drive.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by 356Guy

Yes, it has become obvious that Boxsters around here seem hard to sell without an IMS upgrade which is a consideration when I buy because I don't keep cars long. Many if not most buyers now are enthusiasts and educated on the issue. The local shop quoted $4-5k to do the clutch and IMS. Its a tough sell on a $10-20k car that you just bought. I'll do it myself but it is still $4k in parts with the IMS Solution (I'm currently in the "IMS Solution is the best" camp too as I think AF bearings in an engine are just a bad idea.)

Doing it yourself is going to be less than $4K. Figure $400 for a clutch kit and bolts, $20 for an RMS, under $1800 for the Solution kit, plus any other incidentals (AOS, gear oil, etc.) you want to do while you have it apart. In my world that comes in at around $2200.