Opinions are welcome on IMS issue. ...I know
 

It's been beaten to death so consider this a revival

986 in question is new to me - one previous owner , 53k miles ,2002 base 2.7
Since having it (2-3 weeks). I had the following done
Tuned up ,plugs ,tubes filters etc. oil & gear oil changed , front brakes rotors /pads / flushed fluid and added braided lines
Just put on continental DWS06 tires (want to drive it in winter -no snow )

So I've put a few $$ in already. All just regular maintenance things that should be done

That IMS bearing issue is still looming. Like a buzzard circling What I don't get is the car is 14 yrs old with 53k miles and runs great !

I'm wondering how many owners have chosen to just drive with original bearing and enjoy the car as is ? I know the #s. Single row 8% failure etc.
so I guess the question is. " do you feel lucky". There is a 90% chance of good times

The $2100 for the job is the issue. If it were $500 it's done. The other factors are additional "while we're in there". Clutch ,flywheel , RMS Etc.

I guess we are or were in the same boat. Just how you handle it :)

I had a 2001 boxster s which I traded for an '06 (126,000 vs 32,000 miles). Anyway I was told that if your car has made it past the 50,000 mile mark it's a safe bet the ims is fine. Just make sure to do oil changes regularly, I do every 6 months, and if you want to change out the ims wait until you need to replace the clutch. You'll save on labor.

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Plan for it when you do the clutch.

Do clutch ASAP.

No more worries.

Done.

I've had mine for 15 yrs, and haven't replaced the IMS. Change oil every 2 yrs. Original engine and clutch. I'm at 72k miles now. Besides oil changes and brakes, have only had to replace an engine mount, coolant tank and water pump. Not going to replace IMS. I've even heard of peoples' engines blowing up AFTER an IMS replacement that wasn't done right. I'm of the if it ain't broke camp.

I would not bet on that mileage claim; we have seen too many 50k+ IMS failures om single rows to agree.

Do not buy into the "If it was good at 30K, it will be good at 230k" IMS bearing. Mine went out at 105k just a month ago. I made the difficult decision to replace the engine in a 13 year old car. In my defense, my car is a Tiptronic so I never had the chance to piggy back an IMS replacement on a clutch job. Do it, if only for the peace of mind

Carlos

Had mine replaced at 103,000 miles. No worries now.

Ummm... it's a little late to ask now.

This is what you signed up for when you plopped your $$$ down on your car. Members told you what it would cost to get your car up to the proper maintenance and it sounds like you've spent the money on the appropriate things. But if you can't afford an IMS change, why ask? There will be 9 ppl who say all this IMS stuff is hokum. Then the 10th person will come in and say it cost him $10K. So far there hasn't been a pattern as to who gets hit with it and who skates by. Do you spend $2K to possibly save $10K? Not if you don't have the $2K.

If this is bothering you after 1 mo of ownership, then you need to do one of the following:
1. Put the car away until you can afford an IMS upgrade.
2. Drive the car and don't worry about it.
3. Sell the car because this will eat you up. Boxsters are meant to be fun, not worrysome.

Sorry, this is kind of blunt but the question gets old. I would recommend searching on IMS but it will probably depress you even more.

I searched the issue before purchasing car ,I'm well aware .

Another thought comes to mind after purchase is how fool proof is the "fix".
What are the possible cons to replacement

I can find the $ and do replacement now , just wondering what the general consensus is on an informed source like this forum

Asking any Porsche shop will yield the same answer .... better to spend 2k than 10k on new engine
It's like asking a Surgeon about arthroscopic knee surgery. That's what they do for a living

I have a 2003 Boxster S 19,228 miles for 3 weeks (posted in Tech thread on 3-Oct-16 miles as of today 20,323 miles). Local Porsche inde on PPI pulled pan nothing, cut open filter no metal some green rubber bits said no worries wouldn't do anything at this time. When time for a new Clutch 45-50K would also due pressure plate, flywheel, seals-bearings, IMS-Pro for 3K and guides if needed will add to cost but might be a good time while they already in their have a lot exsposed. He also put in a Mag plug. Yesterday went out on a 200-mile drive. The thought of pop goes the weasel is running around in the background.

So today I called two shops one from L&N & the other from Flat6 approved/Cert installers for their list in different states. All I told them I have a 2003 Boxster S 19,228 miles for 3 weeks and had concerns about IMS failure and what would be there recommendations’ Their 1st ?’s were how many miles did I think I would drive a year and city, Hwy or both. Said 500 to 800 a month-both. Both said Change oil every 5k if doing less in a year and it would make you feel better 6 months. Cut open filter & inspect plug each oil change. The first time any mental in filter or Mag plug pull pan and give them a call. Mostly likely if 1 or 2 little pieces would have you clean, fill and drive recheck 1.5 to 2k and call back. The green stuff nothing to worry about. Now go enjoy your car. When the clutch is ready to be replaced have it done then, and also AOS.

So 3 respected shops gave me the same advice when they could have just made $$K. I feel much better about the plan, will be vigilant and start oil analysis on next oil change.

An IMS Guardian is the middle road solution. I fitted one of those to my 03 986. Gave me some piece of mind.

How long do you plan on owning the car? Do you want every drive to start with the thought - "I hope the IMS holds out".

I personally would never change out the IMS -the value for money isn't there IMO. Instead, I drove it for a couple years then swapped it for a 987.2

But if you are keeping her for a long time, then the dollar cost averaging of the part isn't all that bad and the piece of mind might be worth it.

Ultimately - there is no right or wrong answer. Go with your gut. It's your money and your anxiety level.

I put on a Guardian when I first bought the car at 72,000 km (45,000 m). Picked it up on Kijiji from a guy in Calgary who never installed it on his 911. I have since done the IMS along with a full clutch job and I put the Guardian back on. I also change oil every 5000 km (3000 m) and cut open the filter running a magnet through it. This may sound like overkill but while I drive I have no thoughts of the bearing toasting my engine. I am now at 95,000 km (59,000 m). I knew when I bought the car that regular vigilant maintenance would not be cheap, but this is my baby and I plan on keeping her for a long time.

To me, this whole issue comes do to: what do you plan to do when the IMS fails

1. Buy a new car and sell the old as a roller
2. Find a used engine and swap the used one for the failed one
3. Rebuild the failed engine and hope for the best
4. Replace the IMS, change the oil and hope for the best

All four choices involve time and money. Depending on which option you choose should help you decide two things:

1. Whether to replace the IMS before it fails
2. Which of the IMS options to choose

In my case, I installed an IMS Solution when it came time to replace the clutch. I'll never get the cost the Solution back if I sell the car, but the potential search and labor costs of experiencing a premature IMS failure far outweighed the cost of the part.

Thom

There is one fallacy that is seldom admitted by the "frequent oil change+filter inspection" advocates(like me!!).
An IMSB may fail within your oil change interval.It may deteriorate quickly. Ferrous debris will spread throughout the oilways. Then you need a total dismantling of the engine. Probably catastrophic damage will also occur.
So we need an,experienced person like JFP to advise us of his experience with hundreds of M96 engines - how reliable is the 3kmile oil +filter change in detecting IMSB failure to prevent engine damage ? Let's assume we have a magnetic drain plug,LN filter and magnets on the full-flow filter . Would The Guardian improve the odds much?
Even though some of us have rebuilt an M96 and studied the IMSB & Modes of Failure issues diligently, our basis of experience is so small ,we should acknowledge that weakness when we offer advice on the IMSB.Most of us are noobs !
The other idea seldom discussed is also attributed to JFP - is it wise to install a plug behind the new IMSB (like The Solution has) . If you are doing a rebuild and pinning the sprocket like I did, it seems a no brainer. If I had them, I would have done that !If it is a Retrofit. a simple piece like a core plug may be effective?

What I find particularly disturbing is that a supposedly knowledgeable shop told one of the posters above to run it until metal shows up in the oil and then call them. According to both Jake and LN dictum, once you have any signs of ferrous metal in the oil, the car is no longer a viable candidate for a retrofit. If that poster called my shop, he would be told as much.

The retrofit concept is one of being pro active; doing the retrofit before any metal shows up in the filter or pan. Once it is there, we would never retrofit the car.

That reminds me of when I first read about the IMS Guardian. At first it made a lot of sense to me, like a chip detector in an aircraft, see the signs of a failure before it becomes catastrophic.
Then I realized: In an aircraft it may give you a warning in time to safely get to the ground, the engine or transmission is still going to need a rebuild. In an M96, it just lets you know that you are screwed and gives you a chance to pull over before you leave engine parts and oil in the road. You are still just as screwed as you would be finding metal in your filter at an oil change.

Posts 15,16,&17 above, if stated years ago, may have saved a lot of wasted bandwidth on the IMSB subject :-).

It is for this reason I question the value of the Guardian. IMO by the time enough metal has accumulated to trigger the Guardian your engine is already disqualified for IMSB retrofit.

78F350 Beat me to it!

No one of us has the same risk tolerance or pocketbook as you.

Worst case is about 1% failure probability per car year. Unlike in a casino, some few lose big.

There are something like 28 modes of failure. Which should be addressed and which ignored is one of those great unknowns.

Imagine these scenarios:
1. You do the IMS and crash the car 2 weeks later totaling it.
2. You don't do the IMS and the engine fails.

Both can happen. Which will cause YOU the most angst?

I didn't do the IMS and got away with it. BUT I also had enough spare cash to replace the engine with a rebuilt/improved one (~$32k) should I need to, I have a high risk tolerance and I had another car I could drive for the months the new engine would involve. (That '01S is at 93k last I heard. But keep in mind that is a sample quantity one. Meaningless.)

Based on tales of woe from this forum I'd suggest that far more of these cars end up in the junk yard due to immobilizer damage from plugged drains. I believe the resident expert Woody has said that more than 50% of his cars are water damaged. Doesn't seem to cause much lost sleep though.

My two cents....
 

....I always wanted a Boxster.

I bought a 2004 "50 Years of 550 Spyder Edition" in June 0f 2015.

I immediately shipped it to Jake Raby of Flat 6 Innovations and had him perform the "IMS Solution" plus R&R the clutch, flywheel, water pump, rear main seal, spark plugs, cam chain tensioners, serpentine belt and all the idler pulleys, and the air/oil seperator.

I factored all of this work into the purchase price of the car.

The car had 25,000 miles on her when I bought her.

I knew I wanted to keep this car forever.

I now have 38,000 miles on the car.

My wife and I have driven her to the Ozarks for Fall foliage, to COTA for the 2015 WEC Lone Star LeMans, to Fredericksburg for "Boxstoberfest", to Savannah and Charleston with a side trip to Deal's Gap on the way home, and to Colorado this past September for Aspen peeping.

I've driven the snot out of this car and have had ZERO issues.

Did Raby's work cost me money? I paid him money for the service he performed. Most of that service was general maintenance that ANY car would require. The IMS was extra, sure, but what price do you put on peace of mind?

I'd ship her to Baby again tomorrow and pay the same bill all over again. No regrets.

I LOVE this car. My wife LOVES this car. We LOVE taking cross-country vacations in this car.

What's THAT worth to YOU?

To me, it's worth every penny I have spent.

And by the way, Raby's service isn't any more expensive than any other reputable auto technician. I firmly believe that most of the posters on this forum who complain about the price of auto service are young and inexperienced folks who just don't have the "life lessons" in their background that allow them to grasp the true cost of doing business in this world. Nothing wrong with that, it's not their fault, but they tend to skew these discussions into a negative data base that plants seeds of doubt into the minds of every new Porsche Boxster owner who joins this forum.

If you can replace a part that will grenade your engine for $2,000, why wouldn't you?

A new engine is around $30,000.

Just replace your IMS with the "IMS Solution" and start living life like me.

I'm a happy guy.

BE a happy guy.

You can DO it.

:cheers:

Wise words from Mike.
But for the poor schmucks with single row bearings, the risk is at least 8x the 1% for the double row cars. As they say in the Casino world '"The House always wins".
The other factor that you raise - budget for a rebuild/replacement - as these cars become cheaper , the Miata-budget guys buy them and think ' Wow cheap Porsche +German Engineering - must be a deal ,right ?' .Those guys have no clue how expensive the M96 can be and I doubt many have even a $3k budget for an engine replacement- so $32k is out of their world expensive. Even a $5 used engine +labor would make them totally upside down in a car probably worth less than $5k.Just want them to go in eyes wide open to the possible cost.
Yemv

I'll make this quick and simple: Since you're worried enough to ask, replace it.

With that being said, I am on my 4th engine. I treat them as disposable and I keep a used spare engine on hand. I buy used engines, run them until they blow up and then swap in another replacement. 2.5L engines are easily found for under $3K (the engine below was $2,750 with 90K miles) and if you swap it in yourself, you can be up and running for $3,500.

My next engine waiting to be swapped in...
http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/...pszwp3ji9e.jpg

Wow...
 

...THSTONE, that's admirable. I think your approach is great. I wish I had the time, space, workshop, and patience to follow your lead.

For ME, I wanted a reliable, real world, every day useable Boxster that my wife and I can drive to Seattle and back to our Louisiana home without worrying about the engine blowing somewhere west of Laramie, in the rain, at 8pm on a Sunday.

I just can't play Russian Roulette while on a cross-country trip with my wife.

Also, my time is worth more to me than I want to spend R&R'ing engines.

I just don't have time for that crap. I'd rather be out on my motorcycle if i'm not driving the Box with my wife.

Cheers.

I've been struggling with the same. Mine is a 99 base with ~65K. Clutch is great. I just can't justify $3000 for clutch flywheel ims ect, with no failure. I'd rather put that money into an engine swap fund!


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'99 is a pretty solid choice regarding ims - double row has held up well

I was ready to go with A '99 PPI showed too may other issues . I think I may have rolled the dice with that double row at least until clutch needed doing

I just spoke with another indy shop who like an oil fed regular ball bearing imsb
these cars are not for Neurotic personalities :p

I'm leaning towards the LN PRO , looking into possible clutch kits while I'm at it

The chance of an IMS failure is about the same as being seriously injured in your daily life.

You just accept that its the price of living the way you want and driving what you want. You do a bit of due diligence, regular maintenance and spirited driving etc to perhaps lessen the odds slightly.

You keep the $3000 to upgrade to the improved IMS and if the engine ever does self destruct you don't d*ck around. You buy a used replacement engine with that money and add perhaps 500 to 1000 more to have the indy put it in the car and get you back on the road again in short order so you can carry on living and driving the way you want.

If you are unable or unwilling to self insure yourself against the rare odds that the IMS lets go then you move on to a car that is less exotic and cheaper to maintain and accept that its not the right time in your life for a 97-2007 Porsche with the dicey IMS.

However beware crossing the road, un-commanded runaway throttles, faulty airbags, carbon dioxide poisoning and aircraft parts falling from the sky else you may never get to enjoy a Boxster :p

PS: Triple A automotive will prevent you from ever having to walk home without your car, if you fear being stranded far away from home.
Honestly some of the most interesting experiences in life occur when they are not planned if you have the kind of personality that can adapt and enjoy life in the moment.

Lots of opinions on this. If money was no issue, replace it now before it can cause an issue. But then, money is an issue for most of us.

My personal opinion is that all IMSBs will fail at some point, there just seems to be a lot of variability as to when. My dual row bearing was in failure mode when I bought my car. That being the case, I took measures to repair the problem as best I could without tearing the engine down and get some life out of it before it goes to Porsche heaven.

The bearing was intact but worn. The bearings had worn down and were wobbly in the bearing chase. There was some metal in the filter and a lot inside the intermediate shaft.

I replaced the IMSB and replaced the filter with the spin on adapter type and filter mag to catch any debris on the first pass through the system. I changed the filter at 100 miles. Then changed the filter at again 500 miles and oil and filter around 3000 miles. (as I recall)

Since then, I have done 2 oil changes at about 5000K. I have not found any visible metal in the filter or pan since the first filter change. The filter mag does continue to catch black, magnetic flour that might pass through the filter. I will have put 13K on it next week since replacing the IMSB.

I do change the filter every 2500K just to check on the engine. The filter is $5 and the half quart of oil is maybe $4. Gives me peace of mind to see what is going on inside the engine.

When I found my problem, several people suggested I replace the engine because it was toast. So far, that has proved incorrect. Was the engine damaged in some way, most likely. Does it still run like a champ and sound perfect, Yes! My engine is a 2.5. Not really worth overhauling and the cheapest option to replace. So I figured, What the hell, lets see how long it lasts.

If I had one of the much more expensive engines, I might have considered pulling it apart. In my case, it really didn't matter and was worth the risk. When my engine does die, I will buy a used engine and replace the IMSB before it goes in the car!

IF I had a Boxster of any variation that was 15 years old and had not had the IMSB replaced, it would be a concern. I personally believe most of these bearings will fail at some point. I would probably get a full flow, no bypass filter system and monitor it on a continual basis by changing and inspecting the filter between oil changes. At least doing so costs very little and it would give me some peace of mind.

BTW, sorry for the long post.

Bare in mind that Tom drives the crap out of his Boxster. It is a race car and he does a lot of the work himself

Having spare engines and transmissions ready to go is not that uncommon for a race car.

That all being said, if it keeps you up at night, replace the IMSB. There are several choices including the LN ceramic as well as a few roller bearing ones and some with oil feed. Lots of different flavors of Kool-aid to choose from.

My 01 S has 87k on the original IMSB, I do a bunch of autocross and around 10-12 track days a year where I drive it hard. I change the oil every 5k or >2500 if going to the track. I sleep well at night and at some point I will probably change out the IMSB

YMMV

Ims
 

Jay always offers the very best advice - there is no calmer, better 986 advice that you can find. But, to me its simple: replace the IMS/RMS and enjoy your car from that point forward. Peace of mind is worth a lot! Unless you are a top flight mechanic, with extra money, with all of the proper tools, lifts, etc., its a bad day if that engine blows - a real bad day.

Peace of mind is worth a lot!

Good luck,
David Preston:)
02 Boxster

My new concern is that if the IMSB is changed will the work be done properly !

read some stories where the swap out didn't go so smooth.

need to ask questions of tech doing work - it can be a touchy situation

how many of these have you done etc..

My 2 cents????


Overhyped and something not to worry about.

I just began my search for a Boxster about a month ago but I'd like to chime in because I am/was in a similar position to the original poster.

The IMS is a ticking time bomb ready to go off at any moment... well that was the impression I got as I began looking for a Boxster. As others said, if that will be your feeling every time you turn the key then do an IMS upgrade. Of course it's not a 100% guarantee but should alleviate the feeling.

As I've been looking, I settled into the following choices within my budget:
Dual Row 97-99 model
Single Row 2000-2004 with confirmed IMS upgrade performed
Single Row 2005-2008, preferably with some history or IMS upgrade

I eliminated the potential for a dual row early 2000 because it would be basically impossible for me validate.

Now funny enough I fall somewhat into this category " as these cars become cheaper , the Miata-budget guys buy them and think ' Wow cheap Porsche +German Engineering - must be a deal ,right ?' .Those guys have no clue how expensive the M96 can be..."

I own 3 Miatas currently. They are rock solid and my search for a Boxster started with a search for a newer Miata daily driver for myself. A 986 is running much cheaper than a 2006+ Miata, and cheaper than many 2001-2005 Miatas, but the driving experience is night and day unless you have a well sorted Miata, of which my autocross Miata is but my daily drivers are not. I prefer the 99-2005 Miata generation but the interior is dated and feels much older to me. The 2006-2015 Miatas are nice "cars" but feel like a ford on wheels.

However I've done my research and understand not just the reliability but the cost of maintenance I'll be getting in to. I do a lot of my own work but also know there are things that will be beyond my capability, and those won't come cheap. Even silly things like getting that second key. (ugh)

Just last night I confirmed the deal, my first Boxster - a 2005 model that was well cared for cosmetically but had an engine failure at 75,000. It has been replaced with a 49,000 mile engine where the IMS has been inspected, the seal removed, but has not been upgraded. (which of course on this generation requires cases to be split).

The IMS will concern me a little, but I know what I'm getting in to.

I was looking at a fair deal on a 98 with 46,000 miles but no upgraded IMS. I was leaning toward that but prefer the one I am getting for several reasons. Personally I would have paid for upgrading the IMS on any pre 2005 model just for peace of mind. Of course its not the sole contributor to failure on the car and there are no guarantees, but its a mental thing.

I guess that these cars would have a higher resale value if it was not for the IMS issue, so add the cost of potential cost of mechanical work to the purchase price and put the extra money into a bank deposit just in case it happens.

When you see what some people spend on restoring old cars of lesser performance and quality the Boxster situation is put into perspective. IMHO

There are 28 "Modes of Failure" for the M96 engine.The IMS is just the beginning. Then there are the expensive repairs to other issues like 6-speed, AOS,suspension etc.
The Boxster buy-in price is cheap, the stay-with cost can be exorbitant relative to the Market Value of the car. For that reason a competent PPI by your 986 Forum-recommended Indie is invaluable.

Having recently been on the search for a Boxster S, like many others before the IMS was a concern. However it was less so for the pros. I provide this link to one of Pedro’s videos discussion the IMS and also Road & Race UK. Take it for what its worth in gaining more info.

One of the overlook things that I continually found was the focus on IMS was what
Gelbster has noted several times along with Flat6. There are many causes for an engine failure other than the IMS. My you enjoy your ride with data that works for you.

Pedro's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzUq2DFpeKw

R&R https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lv4V232Bx8&list=PLNKrPMJBU7WhWJWDcSdS4BFK 2d182oHPV&index=23

Video looking at several IMS kits. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxdvSq_byZw&list=PLiya6G1pHhIYyzhlVzS_LwoI ovrlv6_lv&index=16

We need way more competent diy mechanics involved in Boxsters .
But they need to have fat wallets,lots of time,equipment , blind enthusiasm & Post here often. The Track guys are perfect candidates. I welcome them all because each bring some new solutions. Ben 006 is a good example with his slick shifter, Stelan with the AOS hack, the manual top hack by others.
Some of the solutions are simple as indicated in Post 7 of the link below. But they are buried in the bowels of hundreds of postings scattered over many Forums. That is why someone like Wayne Dempsey or others at Pelican need to do the engine/trans R&R + rebuild videos and guides. It would sell lots of parts for them,drive traffic to their Forums and generally develop their Brand. It would be sooooo easy for them to do.
http://986forum.com/forums/general-discussions/64190-expert-engine-removal.html

Most IMS failures happened below 30K miles, probably due to bad batch of bearings. Porsche seemed perfectly content to replace the bearing with the exact same part number as when it was new. I would not worry about a car that has over 50k miles on it.