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Old 07-15-2016, 08:54 PM   #1
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So I just cracked-open my IMS flange....

And this is what I found. The horror!

Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes I wish things like this would have been shot to hell upon inspection.

But it's not.

It's intact, it turns beautifully and is not loose in any way. The seals do not appear to be brittle or broken. There is absolutely no wobble in the bolt shaft/front bearing retainer.

AND I'M GOING TO LEAVE IT JUST AS IT IS.

The car is a 2002 S with 67k miles. It ran very smooth before I ripped it apart to change the clutch. I did an oil inspection that turned-up absolutely no signs of above-microscopic metal. I will just change the oil every 3,000 - 4,000 and repeat the inspections until the engine starts to get clattery, or until I find silver in the filter...and THEN I might think of replacing it with pretty much the same damn bearing that's in there now.

I present to you, the unicorn. A decent NSK 4206DU17 bearing that has been in there since day one. It's fine...(knock on wood)





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Old 07-15-2016, 08:58 PM   #2
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Yes, I am well-aware that the grease has probably been washed-out of it for 50,000 miles, and that there is old ugly oil inside of it, but I am going to call it a sleeping bear, and let it be.
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Old 07-16-2016, 02:18 AM   #3
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Geez, can imagine when all of those parts flying off and peppering out in a dense populated area. Terrorist stuff (not unicorn man)

If really you and others are worried about your bearings, please invent what should have been invented at the very first place and perhaps a long time ago.

This is 2016 now guys :/ Not 1972. Soon to be 2017 if some are not aware.

It is as bloody simple as using piezo-like vibration sensor ported onto the flange or anywhere near the center of that rotating mass. With today’s inexpensive real-time capable telemetry (micro-computers) and as simple as downloading often affordable SDKs (Siemens’s LMS Test.Lab for instance, many others), you can compile an app that aggregate real-time data (and it’s in the 1~2Ghz fast). Sync the emergency switching to the car’s ignition and voila, you won’t have to worry about a bearing blowing-up unexpectedly.

Not that it not feasible, I've already seen some cabling/tubing being drilled into that flange.

^ Mind you I haven’t invented any of that rant; already works for aerospace, transportation, military, can’t imagine it not working for a silly little 911 bucket car.

PLEASE BE SERIOUS DEAREST IMS INVENTORS: Call it PATTENT # IMS986996

RE shinny bearings; even if they are made out of Wurtzite (boron nitride), diamond, silicon carbide, etc etc etc There is still no way (in 2016!) to tell when it’s about to fail.

Get to work, save a Porsche (or more!). Thanks you very much and have a amazing day
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Old 07-16-2016, 02:24 AM   #4
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Ta Da, Bingo! Couldn't find better to illustrate my Frenchglish above. Proof of concept.

01:02min

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Old 07-16-2016, 03:15 AM   #5
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Hello nine8six,

when will the sensor and app set be available (in your new shop)? I think there is a buyer waiting.

But i think we would need some data from good and bad engines and engine types to make it easier to identify the right wrong vibrations.

And if that could be combined with the camshaft deviation that would be a very good indicator that something might get wrong.

BTW: knock sensor works the same. But it sits on the cylinder head; so wrong position.

Regards, Markus

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Old 07-16-2016, 03:53 AM   #6
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Markus - the app uses adaptive learning tech. It doesn't need to know the differences between a good and bad bearing.

All it needs is to evaluate is fluctuations in acoustics/vibrations using (aggregating). E.g. if the curve goes UP and does not stabilize back to its original learning curve, it simply errors out.

Error; dash light; you just won't be able to start your car. Simple as that

Works even if installed while the bearing is currently in the process of failing. That curve will deviate every miles the car makes and just won't pass the learning stage anyway.

Now THAT is a fail proof system and permanent peace of mind solution.

I'm tempted to give it a shot with relevant engineering talents but unfortunately this IMS business has nothing to do with me.

What I would like/LOVE to see is a community joined-force. A NEW thread in the DYI calling on talents to associate and building a "modern" solution for our beloved Porsche cars.

E.g. I'll be the guy who machine the parts and model assemblies. You can be the Electrical engineer, and John Doe will be the data acquisition engineers. You get my point. Sales/profits to be shared among the dev team. Read FULL transparency, open source if you prefer
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Old 07-16-2016, 04:10 AM   #7
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sick of hearing & reading about bearings, thousands and thousands of Porsche fan like myself worries way too much, even if they have a NEW bearing in. It almost f n funny (BUT its not, and that's the problem)

Urgently needs a "permanent" peace of mind high tech solution. Not sure how to put this in English here lolll
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Old 07-16-2016, 04:53 AM   #8
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Hi nine8six,

i like the idea.

Does anybody else like to enter the boat? Maybe new thread?

Regards, Markus
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Old 07-16-2016, 05:13 AM   #9
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lolllll now that the full prototype is drafted you'll have the entire industry dropping by saying "we're working on this already".

So Markus as Project Manager. Headquarter in Germany I don't care. Feel free to start your own thread my friend. If you don't I will. I really hope the IMS leaders (inventors loll) will join soon after. Me think its in their advantage, besides the community needs them anyway.

I'll put my name down for sure: I got $46k worth/paid for software/femap/nastran here, if this may help. Other industry involved. Got high speed machining tools (HSM) capable of 0.002mm accuracy also (careful!). +Mold/die/casting exp. Aerospace ready, in other words
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Old 07-16-2016, 05:22 AM   #10
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We equally need the engineer responsible for the "Handheld IMS Checktool" tester (require adv PIC//Microchip/Matlab/Prog). I'll help you with the backlited LED display and soft silicon grip design

Tool to be distributed to all Porsche Specialists (test equipment)

Concept based on: "Works even if installed while the bearing is currently in the process of failing. That curve will deviate every miles the car makes and just won't pass the learning stage anyway."
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Old 07-16-2016, 06:10 AM   #11
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Geez, can imagine when all of those parts flying off and peppering out in a dense populated area. Terrorist stuff (not unicorn man)

If really you and others are worried about your bearings, please invent what should have been invented at the very first place and perhaps a long time ago.

This is 2016 now guys :/ Not 1972. Soon to be 2017 if some are not aware.

It is as bloody simple as using piezo-like vibration sensor ported onto the flange or anywhere near the center of that rotating mass. With today’s inexpensive real-time capable telemetry (micro-computers) and as simple as downloading often affordable SDKs (Siemens’s LMS Test.Lab for instance, many others), you can compile an app that aggregate real-time data (and it’s in the 1~2Ghz fast). Sync the emergency switching to the car’s ignition and voila, you won’t have to worry about a bearing blowing-up unexpectedly.

Not that it not feasible, I've already seen some cabling/tubing being drilled into that flange.

^ Mind you I haven’t invented any of that rant; already works for aerospace, transportation, military, can’t imagine it not working for a silly little 911 bucket car.

PLEASE BE SERIOUS DEAREST IMS INVENTORS: Call it PATTENT # IMS986996

RE shinny bearings; even if they are made out of Wurtzite (boron nitride), diamond, silicon carbide, etc etc etc There is still no way (in 2016!) to tell when it’s about to fail.

Get to work, save a Porsche (or more!). Thanks you very much and have a amazing day
I love your posts.

Also...Could someone just isolate the OBD2 equivalent of something that constantly monitors camshaft deviation? All it would have to do is start screaming when it realizes that the pattern is that of one chain side slacking and the other chain side tightening really fast and forming a "wave" readout of some sort, which would indicate that the rear of the IMS shaft is is moving in an eccentric or orbital path around the bearing (axially disturbed).

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Old 07-16-2016, 06:51 AM   #12
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AND I'M GOING TO LEAVE IT JUST AS IT IS.
I salute you sir for flying in the face of convention. Although you may be in danger of being labelled a heretic by the general 986/996 community at large. I will also follow in your footsteps and continue to monitor the cam dev. and oil filter (with oil analysis) before I yank that bearing just cuz. And I have a Tip, so no clutch X/O for me.
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Old 07-16-2016, 07:07 AM   #13
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Hi nine8six,

i throw in another idea. If we could store the data of the sensor for a time period and could upload that to an online database, we could compare data and engines. Also it would be possible to give software updates. So it might be useful if the product could communicate with the internet in any way.

I think that is important, because even if the system is self learning the main problem might be to interpret things right. So maybe something generates vibration. But it's not the IMS but a failing a failing ignition coil or something like that.

Regards, Markus
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Old 07-16-2016, 07:49 AM   #14
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^ right there. You see what happen when you group together. Brilliant ideas comes together. Team work and knowledge sharing is a killer. Works.

By using this online sharing method we'd average the ideal vibration freq (range?) in less than a month. Brilliant idea, software updates is a must I agree.

Markus, RE your question about what-is-not-is-breaking; the vibration spectrum analysis (aka algorithm) would be entirely to the m-eng’s discretion. Often highly safeguarded lines of codes but relatively easy to do; being proprietary to Porsche’s IMS only would make it even simpler to develop. To my knowledge not 2 freq are the same.

Not a vibration engineer myself but know for sure that low/high frequency accelerations would be much different from a failing coil pack to an “isolated” grinding metal frequency. Which is, in a few words, what makes this vibration analysis tool (concept) so efficient and literally unbeatable. Boeing, military contractors, and Co, wouldn’t use the technology if it wouldn’t.

Chain slacks monitoring could also work (I’m less aware/exp) but nothing as close and scientifically efficient or reliable as real-time vibration analysis. I do see the data of both being merged for better output however. I mean why not!
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Old 07-16-2016, 08:10 AM   #15
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^ right there. You see what happen when you group together. Brilliant ideas comes together. Team work and knowledge sharing is a killer. Works.

By using this online sharing method we'd average the ideal vibration freq (range?) in less than a month. Brilliant idea, software updates is a must I agree.

Markus, RE your question about what-is-not-is-breaking; the vibration spectrum analysis (aka algorithm) would be entirely to the m-eng’s discretion. Often highly safeguarded lines of codes but relatively easy to do; being proprietary to Porsche’s IMS only would make it even simpler to develop. To my knowledge not 2 freq are the same.

Not a vibration engineer myself but know for sure that low/high frequency accelerations would be much different from a failing coil pack to an “isolated” grinding metal frequency. Which is, in a few words, what makes this vibration analysis tool (concept) so efficient and literally unbeatable. Boeing, military contractors, and Co, wouldn’t use the technology if it wouldn’t.

Chain slacks monitoring could also work (I’m less aware/exp) but nothing as close and scientifically efficient or reliable as real-time vibration analysis. I do see the data of both being merged for better output however. I mean why not!
But wait! How can we make money off of this?
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Old 07-16-2016, 08:25 AM   #16
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You'll sell half a million kits overnight, given the package/app and micro-sensor are <$199.99 and does not need too much of a hassle to install (e.g without having to remove the gearbox).

^ Unrealistic but you get the idea. Can't imagine it being that efficient without retrofitting the IMS flange with "built-in micro sensor" anyway but could be wrong

Just built a website for the product and sell "paid advertisement" to shock absorber and alternator manufacturers (lolll). You'll get so much traffic during product launch you'll make enough cash with this alone I'm sure.
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Old 07-16-2016, 09:29 AM   #17
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But wait! How can we make money off of this?
Simple as pie.

I'll became the official distributor for Europe and will be millionaire within 1 year. I think there will be a big demand. But it also will be a lot of work. As said, i like the idea.

Best would be it is a Bluetooth connected sensor that communicates with your mobile. If there is something wrong you'll get a message on your mobile. Or Siri calls you in the morning at 9:00 and tells you there might something wrong with your car. And next you can ask for a workshop near you to check the problem or you'll get a recommendation for an workshop.

BTW: if we can measure vibration we could also integrate an alarm system if your car is moved without your permission. OK that would mean not only Bluetooth but www connection…

Many options…

Regards, Markus

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Old 07-16-2016, 11:57 AM   #18
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Can't imagine it being that efficient without retrofitting the IMS flange with "built-in micro sensor" anyway but could be wrong
We could build our own IMS retrofit and patent everything.

I would use a (thick) GM-style cam bearing that just gets press-fit into the end of the IMS, and then redesign the flange with a big surface for it to rotate around...and have the oil pressure-fed onto that surface via a tap by the oil filter. Or has that been done already? Unfortunately, that is too simple and wouldn't even need the microprocessor.
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Old 07-16-2016, 01:01 PM   #19
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BTW: if we can measure vibration we could also integrate an alarm system if your car is moved without your permission. OK that would mean not only Bluetooth but www connection…

Many options…
Hey Markus

Today you can see (as affordable) compute having as fast as 1.2GHz. e.g. cortex A9 CPUs, 1GB of RAM built-in Wi-Fi and bluetooth. Extremely fast & powerful and retail for less than $100. Cost much less when “pre-ordered” in qty. So.... technically if the car is in range with your residential wifi or 4G hotspot, it is essentially LIVE capable. Your options and creativity is limitless at that point.

FauxDiablo - Properly relayed using a decent microcontroller this thing also can cut your ignition 1,000ms faster than your engine have time to grenade itself See it as a real-time Porsche Engine heartbeat. IMS is the main priority and issue but also think anything else out of the regular ‘ticking’ curve. Powerful stuff, seen/read about it before on some million $ machine tool, airplanes, weapon dist systems(quite an important feature lolll), but never seen this sort of telemetry on any cars and I think Porsche owners wants some. Judging from the obsession toward the bloody bearing and slight little ticking noises anyway.

Need 2 piezoelectric accelerometers (analyses each other,see;quality only!)
Extensive backend coding + Management, reporting, automation + GUI

The rest is hands on Porsche proprietary data collection and analysis and that’s it really. Not all space science. Tech that works already, ported to handheld devices, etc etc
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Old 07-16-2016, 01:16 PM   #20
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Hello, Nine8Six.

Good idea and it will work. I say that having worked as a senior development engineer for hardware and software in various digital products, including a lot of audio. I'm a 25-year+ member of IEEE and AES.

You may be underestimating the amount of code that has to be written, not to mention the extensive debugging required to make it reliable. In this case, the amount of code will be driven by the large number of digital filters needed and the interaction among them. This is because motors are noisy places. Picking out the relevant signal from the noise could only be achieved by "self learning" algorithms "hearing" more than a few failures. Lacking any database of failure sounds, the software will have to determine the onset of failure based on changes from "normal." Of course "normal" will vary from motor to motor and across a large operating range.

In short, this is a hard problem that does not lend itself to generalization. Some strategies may be transferable to other motors in other models of cars, but most of the code will not be reusable.

If you were the Director of Engineering at Porsche and asked me as a consultant to bid for this software work, I would estimate 2 man-years. At my rates, that is over $300K.

Good luck with it.

Cheers,

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