Issues with Retrofit Projector HID Lights!
 

Help!

For the last 2 days, I have not been able to fire my Projector HID lights. These are the early generation that was developed by Nine8Six and they have been mostly perfect for the year I have had them (I bought them from another member).

I have check the battery, alternator & starter. All good.

Here is a picture when I go to the fog light switch (turn to left from off). Works fine.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1465689133.jpg

Here is a picture when I go to the parking light mode (turn to right one click). Also works fine.

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02...1465689204.jpg

I will post a youtube link of what happens when I turn the lights all the way on (two clicks right).

Here is the video of the HID's trying to fire.

Both sides do the same thing.

https://youtu.be/zajr0ZqFbw8

Any suggestions on how to debug this would be great.

This just started happening on Thursday Night.

Before that, it worked mostly fine. Occasionally they would come on but flicker. Turn them off and back on and all was good.

Check the headlight switch. They are prone to come unglued. There is a post that shows the insides in pieces. There is a lot going on inside that small switch.

+1 on the headlight switch


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Hello,

first: did you check the fuses? I don't know how it's wired, but i would check fuses first.

I don't know this system wiring in detail, but does this system use a resistor or a can-bus adapter? If yes, that was what i would inspect first. Because both sides don't work i don't think it's a ballast problem, but depends on how it's wired.

I don't think it's a headlight switch problem.

Regards, Markus

If it was a fuse problem, would the HID's *try* to fire?

Hello jpc763,

as said, it depends on the wiring. In general HIDs use an additional fuse and relay. I don't know how your headlights are wired. Or if they use a can-bus adapter or something else.

Regards, Markus

Sounds much like mine. A new headlight switch fixed the issues.

Hi Markus,

These are the HID retro that Nine8Six designed. I do not know where the fuse or relay are, perhaps in the housing.

I will dig through the thread to see if there is a fuse. I do have a question, if the fuse is bad, would the bulbs even try to fire?

Thanks, John

Hi John,

is that a 35W HID kit? Or is it higher rated? Both, a 35W or a higher rated HID kit use more ampere at start up than normal bulbs. Also the HID headlight bulbs must match the ballasts capacity.

did a short search on the wiring myself and found this:
http://986forum.com/forums/380030-post222.html
http://986forum.com/forums/383849-post266.html

Wow, that's not how it should be wired in general, because Xenon HIDs suck more amperes than standard headlamps, especially when they start up. That's why in general there is an additional relay with an additional fuse that are both adjusted to the higher ampere consumption, especially at the start up of the headlamps.

That means the ballasts are switched by the cars light relay which is switched by the light switch. Additionally there are the headlight fuses of the car.

If the light switch would not work, the headlight would not try to ignite. The headlights are not switched by the headlight switch itself, they are switched by the light relays.

Because of the fact that the headlights try to ignite i would say the ballasts are both gone or you have a wiring problem at the ballasts, or they didn't get enough ampere to start up.

Additional question:
Do the normal headlights work in your car?

Regards, Markus

PS: the wiring diagrams for ROW, USA and Canada differ a bit when it comes to headlights. Canada for example has additional relays for daytime running lights.

Hi Markus,

The thread that you posted is the HID conversion that I have, Mine are gen 1 (before Pelican Parts sold them).

Unfortunately, I do not have the old headlights so I cannot test to see if they work. Perhaps I can find another owner nearby that can help me.

Thanks, John

Hello John,

if you would have the option to test the light with a standard headlight, i think that would be the easiest way to test, because than you could easily see if the light works.

If a standard headlight doesn't work, it's more a light switch, relay or connection problem. But i'm pretty shure a standard headlight will work.

If a standard headlight works, it's a ballast or a power (ampere) / connection problem.

Hope that helps
Regards, Markus

Marcus; There is more to this story. Just so all info is considered, here is another piece of the problem in the other thread.

http://986forum.com/forums/performance-technical-chat/61933-headlight-questions.html

http://986forum.com/forums/general-discussions/61951-help-battery-issues.html

Don't know how a massive current draw by the headlights could not blow a fuse, but there seems to be a connection.

Before trashing the sw completely, it might be worth taking apart and cleaning with contact cleaner. i had the same issue, cleaned and massaged sw-Ok. Don't use WD-40.

@Markus - the initial draw per headlight is similar to what the hallogen run onto constant. Luckily HID settles down to a mediocre 3.2amp 2secs after a cold-start. Having that low constant consumption is what's advantageous long term over the traditional hallogen - I'm guessing! For info; you rate at 30amp on the boxster headlight circuit so I wouldn't worry regardless of how you'd install two hid ballasts. Those combined drawing 9~10amps at cold starts ;)

Think your cigar lighter is pulling something like 22amps lolll Go Go Boxsters forever!

@John - Thanks for your pm and the heads up on your thread

1. try to identify the ballast's POS + NEG and connect this directly onto a 12VDC source to see if they ignite. Not many ways to do this, either by opening the oem back cover of the headlight and un-shielding the ballast connector itself, or the easy way: use a pair of alligator clips and feed 12vdc to the corresponding headlight pins.

If the ballasts ignite on standalone current, my advice is to take the car to a garage equipped with car electrical testing tools. Unless of course you are confident with troubleshooting Porsche related electrical problems, then by all means. As mentioned by others, the first place to look is that ignition switch. They do have a few glitches those switches, not only one!. e.g. clean the circular connectors for one with alcohol or acetone.

Note: If it happens to be that mighty ignition switch being dead, double check around as I remember seeing that those were also introduced to Audi or Volks, or both maybe. Meaning the part is widely available and twice cheaper than the original porsche part.

let us know if you need help mate, luck there

Hello 911monty,

thanks – so maybe we have more than one symptom / one problem.

@jpc763: 13,8 Volt is the correct voltage value when engine is running. Seems that generator and regulator are healthy. Problem with the starter battery could be a upcoming short cell circuit of one battery cell. Means the battery collapses under load.

@Nine8Six: Good that you're back on this forum!

Did you see in jpc763's video that the HIDs tried to start. Why would they do that if the headlight switch is not working? Bad connection? As far as i know there is a relay between switch and headlamps.

Regards, Markus

Marcus - wow thanks for pointing the vid, missed it.

yea that looks like there aren't enough current reaching the igniters (intermittent current). Mind you... both sides failing at the same time is a chance on a X billion if you ask me. hence why I suspect other electrical issues.

Whether the ign switch or not, who knows. That'd surely be the first thing I'd clean and test re-fit before. Having the ballasts igniters connected onto a direct 12vdc source would rule them out, not the switch however.

RE relay, aren't those old style mechanical relays? Possible but again I'd be surprised

Well I did not make any progress on this today. I had to replace the washing machine bearings! The spin cycle sounded like a jet taking off. That was a 4 hour job as you have to take *everything* off of the washer to get to the bearings!

@Nine8Six - Are you talking the ignition switch or the headlight switch?

I will try to hook the ballast of one of the HIDs to my portable jump starter. Will that work?

https://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-PSJ-1812-ProSeries-Starter-Portable/dp/B002J8LMVC

Thanks, John

I take it you've seen better days. Wanted to cheer up but failed after reading your washing machine werks.

I meant both the ignition switch and the light switch while at it. Get the light switch clean first and literally change the ignition switch if you can. Normally (I'm not a pro) any gizmo flashing or acting up is in most cases related to the ignition switch - or a bad battery.

Also voltage regulator at load (>14.5v?) few things to check. Not fun I know :/

RE your Amazonian charging device... man that's a resuscitation kit. The advert says "1800 Peak Amps"... sure would work for a heart attack lolll. Don't know mate. I'd just take the car battery 12vdc source if you got nothing else. Needs a constant-voltage DC PSU (preferably 12v) with 5~6amp rating min so if this resuscitation kit reads in the manual that you can do it then just use that.

This might be of interest, John

Post #2604

http://986forum.com/forums/499066-post2605.html

Thanks! I will look into getting one.

Again, you can take your switch apart and clean the contacts. I've done it successfully. Pulled it apart last October and its still working.

I plan to do that thin week.

UPDATE: Problem Solved!!!!

I purchased a switch from another member who was converting his box to a race car. I installed it and it works perfect!

So I am interested in taking the old switch apart to see what is broken. How do I get it apart?

Thanks for all of the help here. I was able to fix this problem for $30. It would have cost hundreds to take it to the shop to get it fixed!

John

Not joking, soak it into a jar of pure acetone and shake it good. Repeat and let evaporate. That should etch out the dirt and oxidation layer off the contacts just enough that it can be re-used for a few more amps deliveries. Not for very long normally...

Still worth changing and tossing the old one in the bin

(wow $30, lucky bud)

Best I can find to illustrate. Shall you want to get into a fight with the (miniature) tabs. Not easy but somehow doable with patience.

http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/...pssownvkvi.jpg

Thanks for the feedback.

Still don't understand if there is no relay to switch the headlamps. Because if there is a relay, why is that switch so weak. And if there is no relay, it's no wonder that the switch is killed over time.

Think the picture of Nine8Six says all.

Regards, Markus

Switch is capable of great current, this is some heavy duty and thick copper. I bet it is good quality copper also lolll (read conductive). The problem is the 'mini' conn pads (see grab below). Slight little bit of dirt between and the contact will be weak, you'll get intermittent current flow, and eventually the current will just avoid that route all together lolll. Oxidation as all/any other connectors also can be nasty (not talking about corrosion yet).

Not a cheap switch unfortunately. Ign switch is a worst problem maker I read many times now :/

http://986forum.com/forums/uploads02/lswt1466613280.jpg

Thanks nine8six, now i understand the problem.

Regards, Markus

dunno Markus, can't see anything going wrong other than one or more of these little pads (those aren't fixed points, prone to oxi, vibration, etc). Can't speak science zero null tests what do I know ;)

Who cares now, there light again!

Hi nine8six,

well i did again a research, but couldn't find a relay for the main headlights in the wiring circuit or elsewhere.

And if that is the truth, than i understand the design of the switch. But that also means that this switch will be toasted over time, because it depends on how fast you use it and how much ampere it had to switch. A relay is a much better switch, because on and off is within milliseconds and it can easily be replaced. Also if you use hid headlights that might toast the switch much faster.

So if anybody know if there is a headlamp relay in the car, please let me know where it sits.

Thanks & regards, Markus

As much as you’d possibly hope for Porsche to fail under your radar, they are not fools, I reassure you, Markus!

Their headlight design is ported onto a single circuit and is protected as you’d expect it – meaning your skinny little 15amp fuse is going to smoke light years before your main switch. Worst case scenario; you’d need to replace the fuse twice more often than your mysterious dash switch (or your ‘relays’ for whatever reason you’d need those for?!).

Relays as I understand their purposes are used for controlled signals, meaning you need two or more points to require a relay (your flashers for instance). Perhaps I didn’t understand your question but slowly starting to understand the point you are trying to make. (duuh me loll)

Hi nine8six,

well, in general modern cars have "ECU's" (Steuergerät is the german term for that) for light. That means there is not always a physical relay for headlight switching, but an electronic circuit with power transistors. That also means that you can control how to switch something (ampere, load, soft start, etc.). I can't find something like that in the 986 circuit diagrams. There is just a bulb, a simple switch and a fuse.

I understand how the fuses work. But from an electronic point of view that is not near a perfect or modern solution. So under some circumstances this system will really wear and fail over time.

just my 2 cents, because i don't know better. ;)

Regards, Markus

Markus, ECU stands for Engine Control Unit buddy.

Modern cars are equipped with what’s known as canbus network. Primary function is you don’t necessarily need to have terminating points hardwired to a switching device anymore for those items to be able to interact with each other’s. The core circuitry and protection however remains as off today, more or less the same primitive one as the one installed in your bathroom, or your office. Less the sensor and central management provided by the CAN, of course. (CAN as in Controller Area Network, Markus)

There are many great write-up online RE canbus, the advantages of HID over old halogen, their power savings, efficiency, etc. Suggest you to take some time to get familiar. Something tells me you'll want to upgrade your halogen to at least Litronics, although not all bi-xenon, still a smart upgrade lolll

I'm out Markus sorry, no offense bud

Hi nine8six,

no need to get out of the discussion. I'm still here. ;) You can't offend me, because i'm the guy who knows nothing and is always willing to learn something new. Just want to understand things. And if somebody needs infos i try to help the best i can. That's all.

I used the dictionary to translate the german term "Steuergerät" and the dictionary did translate it to ECU as Electronic Control Unit. Sorry for that.

And yes, i have often problems to translate everything i'm thinking about to an understandable english. Especially when it comes to technical terms. Trying to get better, but it's not always that easy. Sorry if there was something misleading.

If i'm talking about Lichtsteuergeräte (electronic control units for light) i'm talking about control unit from the same time. For example Mercedes used such control units, but the also use hardware relays for headlamp switching. And yes these are CAN-bus systems.

And no, my car has OEM-Litronics. So i don't need an upgrade. But my car has a problem with one Litronic headlamp that i couldn't solve. Changed the Litronic hid bulb, switched the ballast from one side to the other, checked all connections – but have the problem that the left bulb sometimes turns off if i drive over bumps. If i switch on the headlight again, the Litronic headlamp turns on immediately. So there must be a bad connection somewhere or maybe it's the light switch.

That was why i asked for relays and the light switch.

Regards from Germany,
Markus

Your English can't sux more than mine ;) My Mandarin speaking is near perfect however, then include my native French and you get Scottish mixed with Norwegian English out lolll

Didn't know you had an issue with your own light, sorry bud. Link me up if you have a dedicated thread.

Litronics goes off on bumps = bad connection/connector.

If really there are no indication visually of a bad connector and the circuit have continuity while car parked, then a safe and quick alternative is to fabricate yourself a very bright 12v test light with extra long leads (so you can have it in-car) and hook it up to various stage of your headlight +/- circuit.

Have that test light next to you in the car and go back to the bump that normally take out your Lit Markus.

If you suspect the car's circuit start at the fuse. If you suspect the Litronic unit itself, then start at the headlight connector pins. That way you'll be able to identity which side the problem is coming from. Then take it from there.

You may find out that the electronics gets weak with time in the litronic unit itself Due to heat-cycles and vibrations (weaken conn, un-tighten connectors, etc). If original from factory then I wouldn't rule this out too quick - they are old. The fact that only the left side is affected leads me to believe it is the litronic headlamp itself or the connectors anywhere between the fuse and the headlamp.

A faulty light switch would cancel both your litronics

Thanks for that very helpful information. I couldn't see it in the wiring diagram.

Had inspected both Litronic units, but couldn't find remarkable differences. Everything is tight, no weak contacts, no broken or half broken cables or sign of burn or charred. So it seems i have to look for bad connections in the harness from the headlamp to the fuse box and all connectors within - which is a PITA.

I think your english is much better than mine. ;) Not to mention that i find mandarin very funny and understand nothing and my french does only work if i communicate mostly with gestures and hand signs. :D

A+ Markus

"major" PITA, yes :/

Try testing the car (& those bumps) with someone else's litronic installed. If you don't know anyone with the same litronic, try your Porsche dealer who I'm sure could arrange this for you as they did for some here in Shanghai. They are normally quite kind and useful in difficult circumstances like yours (they are not all crooks as many thinks).

I'd be glad to hear that you just need to swap the headlight unit and save yourself the troubleshooting work. Not cheap I know but could worth every hours wasted - shall the problem be the litronic.

Luck there