The unlucky 1%

[78F350]

Originally Posted by ksjohn

I am kind of taking the attitude that even if I do find some very small metal particles in the filter, I am just going to change the IMS, flush the oil and hope for the best. I don't see that the 2.5 engine is worth tearing down. Even if I do it myself, it would cost more than a used engine. So, I am probably going to fix the IMS, put it back together and see what happens.

That being the case, I would highly recommend using the Pelican Parts IMS Kit that Wayne linked, rather than going with one of the more expensive LN kits. If properly installed, it should last as long as a clutch.
When you do the IMS Bearing be sure to follow Jake Raby's procedure of locking cams with the engine at TDC, rather then using the set-screws included with the Pelican Parts kit. People have had the IMS shift or set-screws fall into the engine.

[linderpat]

Originally Posted by flaps10

I had your story crossed up with the other guy who had his engine make terrible noise and cut his filter open to find a mess. Two recent members that lunched engines i guess.

If the IMS bearing really came apart you have two immediate risks. First that your valve timing (re: "deviations") will be all over the place, and may have had valves and pistons colliding. Second, your engine pumped broken the debris through. Those pieces can't exactly fall from their normal locations into the pan. Judging be their appearance they took a trip through a timing chain sprocket or oil pump.

The sad part about the M96 engine is that you can't determine the extent without tearing it downand the risks of collateral damage is high.

I hope I'm wrong though

This is the certainty of what the OP's debris shows. I cannot imagine that at this point, there is no destructive debris throughout the engine, but no way to know 100% without a complete tear down. An IMS fix at this point is probably a waste of money, the horse has already left the barn.

[Perfectlap]

Not to be a jerk, but I disagree that you were unlucky in that you bought the car without a PPI. However you are lucky that you paid very little for the car being a salvage title. So that was a weird sort of blessing. Without the salvage title you would have paid market rate and lost more money.
You can probably sell it as a roller and lose a grand or two. But I don't think any competent Porsche mechanic will agree to replace an IMS bearing that has already disintegrated. The debris that has made into the tight passages will take down the engine sooner than later and cause a more expensive fix than simply doing a rebuild. Best bet is to find a cheap 2.5 donor engine for about $3K, maybe $5K all in with labor if you're lucky.

[arthrodriver]

Thank you responders. I think this may be one of the best current summaries in the forum. So no matter the source of the "kit" the producers have not (apparently) performed reliability studies. Understood in view of the expense.

[ksjohn]

While I appreciate everyone's opinions, and all of you know far more about this than I do, I am not willing to pronounce the patient DOA just yet. I will closely look at the oil filter tonight. I already know that it doesn't look anything like some of the examples I have seen here. There were no obvious bits of metal when I took a quick look at it last week.

Beyond that, it is really all a guess until I get the old IMS out. Maybe a new IMS is a waste of money. Maybe the engine will last 100 miles, 1000 miles or maybe 20,000 miles. That being the case, it seems that I should go with the least cost IMS option considering it may be lost money. For the most part, the rest is my time and the fluids required, so not a large dollar investment.

If it blows up in short order, I can get a used engine and install it. Put a new IMS in that one with the same clutch and down the road. I did not expect to get into this thing without spending money on it, and I did get it cheap. It is just a question of potentially wasting $400 on this engine or spending $3K on a replacement.

Either way, it will be an adventure!

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by ksjohn

While I appreciate everyone's opinions, and all of you know far more about this than I do, I am not willing to pronounce the patient DOA just yet. I will closely look at the oil filter tonight. I already know that it doesn't look anything like some of the examples I have seen here. There were no obvious bits of metal when I took a quick look at it last week.

Beyond that, it is really all a guess until I get the old IMS out. Maybe a new IMS is a waste of money. Maybe the engine will last 100 miles, 1000 miles or maybe 20,000 miles. That being the case, it seems that I should go with the least cost IMS option considering it may be lost money. For the most part, the rest is my time and the fluids required, so not a large dollar investment.

If it blows up in short order, I can get a used engine and install it. Put a new IMS in that one with the same clutch and down the road. I did not expect to get into this thing without spending money on it, and I did get it cheap. It is just a question of potentially wasting $400 on this engine or spending $3K on a replacement.

Either way, it will be an adventure!

Wouldn't you want to just avoid the hassle of doing something twice? Taking down the transmission to replace an IMS is no small task. Some very experienced DIY'ers have done it but I can't recall any who tackled this knowing the IMS had already compromised the engine. Maybe you can score a good deal on 2.5 now that it's the dead of winter and the spec racers are all home nursing their racing budgets. If you wait until spring or summer a good donor engine may be harder to find and the asking prices will certainly be higher. And who wants to go through having to sort out engine issues twice.
Unless this Boxster has a documented history of many important repairs (water pump, AOS, suspension, brakes/wheel bearings/etc.) that in aggregate can easily exceed the resale price of the car, then I would also consider simply selling this as a running condition roller and buying another cheap 2.5 Boxster that checks out. Chalk this up to a learning exercise. It's a slippery slope that I know all too well. You might end up pouring more money into this car than you could have otherwise spent on a mintier condition Boxster from a more recent model year without all the trips to garage. Or if you do like to wrench on the car yourself, you'd still be better off with a Boxster with a bigger engine/less mileage since the ownership cost would be lower from all your non-engine related DIY repairs/maintenance.

[jdraupp]

Originally Posted by arthrodriver

Thank you responders. I think this may be one of the best current summaries in the forum. So no matter the source of the "kit" the producers have not (apparently) performed reliability studies. Understood in view of the expense.

?

Ln has a ton of their bearings in existence and they have even elongated the expected service life because they do so well. So maybe outside of ln there isn't much data on reliability but other than that I'm not sure what you're talking about?

[78F350]

Originally Posted by ksjohn

...If it blows up in short order, I can get a used engine and install it. Put a new IMS in that one with the same clutch and down the road. I did not expect to get into this thing without spending money on it, and I did get it cheap. It is just a question of potentially wasting $400 on this engine or spending $3K on a replacement.

Either way, it will be an adventure!

I know it's a minority opinion and you don't seem to care for votes, but I say IF you enjoy working on cars and have a healthy curiosity about Boxsters go ahead.
As you have said, if the engine fails, you have lost under $1k and gained some significant experience. Having replaced an engine and IMS bearing, I know that doing it a second time will go a lot smoother and faster.

Your engine IS compromised and short of spending much more than it is worth, it can not be 'saved'. The failed 2.7 that I pulled apart was full of debris, most of it was aluminum which will not stick to a magnet. Much of the fine debris was adhering to plastic parts and was still very difficult to remove completely in a parts washing tank with a brush.

Worst case: Soon after you reinstall the engine it will catastrophically fail and the car will need to be towed. I wouldn't plan on taking it for any cross country trips.

Best case: Your engine makes it another 5k-10K miles before the wear from damage and tiny particles finally finish it off. At 2k miles a year, that could be 5 years.

Edit: If you do it, drive it hard and enjoy it; push it to its eventual demise. No sense in taking the trouble if you are going to worry and fear every time you take it out.

[Giller]

There are a fair number of folks out there who have changed out the IMS AFTER finder metal debris and have lived to drive another day. Actually, many many days.

Roll the dice, take your chances. You got the car on the cheap - worst case, you put a few bucks into a fix, it doesn't work - take it as a (hopefully) fun learning experience and then either go get another engine or a newer Box.

Either way, good luck!

[Steve Tinker]

Looking again at the photo's of the metal bits ksjohn put up, I'm not convinced they are from the IMS bearing. If they were part of the cage, you would expect much more ferrous debris in the filter and lying in the oil pan. Maybe from the timing chains or valve assembly???.
But the OP has been lucky in his car purchase, perhaps he will be just as lucky with this.....
If it was me, before I spent another cent, I would drop the transmission (which is free if you do it yourself) and remove the IMS bearing & check for metal in the IMS tube. The condition of the bearing + clutch + flywheel etc would determine my next course of action.

[Perfectlap]

^ good point. The IMS is often blamed by mechanics without a real post mortem autopsy but IMS bits all about is just collateral IMS damage from a bigger failure.

Hey does anyone remember the one Scandinavian guy who found metal just as he was changing his filter? He paid a few grand to have the IMS swapped, thought he dodged a bullet and then we never heard from him again.

[ksjohn]

OK, I tore apart the the OEM oil filter. Attached is a pic. And yes, there were tiny bits of steel in there. Not a lot, but more than anyone would like to find. I am sure they will play hell with some bearing surfaces. But then again, there may have been a total of 30 flecks of metal much smaller than the head of a pin.

Steve, that is what I intend to do. Take off the tranny and pull the bearing and see what condition it is in. If the IMS is in perfect condition (which I seriously doubt), then I will have to look for problems elsewhere. Until I take things apart, everything is just speculation.

[flaps10]

I agree with 78F350 with his best case/worst case scenario.

Pack light and travel with a companion that has a good sense of humor.

[ksjohn]

Originally Posted by flaps10

I agree with 78F350 with his best case/worst case scenario.

Pack light and travel with a companion that has a good sense of humor.

I have AAA and I know how to use it!

[ksjohn]

Oh, and regardless, it will get driven hard! No sense in having a Porsche if you are not going to have your foot in it all the time.

Anyway, it won't be the first engine that I have made go BANG!!!

[arthrodriver]

jdraup, With regard to reliability I was referring to engineering type studies where (I think) accelerated usage and stress is used to predict MTBF etc. Help please from engineering types out there. My point was that no aftermarket supplier can afford to perform such "elegant" studies and so must rely on feedback from owners while holding breath.

Edit: Just a thought...Do oil analyses which detect fine traces offer anything sooner to the Boxter owner compared to the filter dissection? The oil analysis I did (another car) came back with a statement something like..." your oil shows normal characteristics of the engine class xxx."

[flaps10]

Some potentially loaded questions there Arthro (you can start a fist fight in most forums with an oil analysis discussion). I'll only focus on reliability studies in this response.

I'm not usually the first to stick up for Mr Raby but I respect his work. If anyone has gone out and built engines and blown them up (at his own expense) and documented the results it has been him. That information is justifiably proprietary, but his most notable result is the plain bearing "Solution".

The thing that makes it risky for a company like his is that if some geek like myself can get hold of the parts and install them then a whole lot of unknown variables enter the picture (initial condition of the engine, quality of the install, etc). The Solution won't resurrect a zombie, but people seem to want to try.

People want to compare the warranty of the various options and are somehow surprised that the warranty on a sub $1000 kit wouldn't cover your smoking boat anchor engine with a rod sticking out the side, because surely there could be no other reasons for a subsequent engine failure.

Had it been available for dual row cars at the time I had my engine apart I would certainly have selected it. As it stands, it's not hard to improve on the factory selection.

[arthrodriver]

Well just tell me to STFU if I am asking too many questions. I looked again at the youtubes and some topics occurred to me. Re corrosion: the pictures of the races and metal balls look just like failed wheel bearings to me and don't see any pitting outside of the contacting surfaces. Has anyone sectioned an IMS "tube" where the alleged corrosive fluids reside to look for pitting?

Way back the VW hotrodders had a trick ball bearing lower end "OKRASA" or some such. Seems like the ball bearing application was inferior to plain bearings due to short life. Just ref.

Finally:So the LN fix is similar to a cam running in machined webs with oil feed holes?

No fist fights intended , but how about the oil analysis. They use it in aircraft engine analysis, right, flaps10?

Edit: You tube said something about an electronic monitor of the IMS??? Hype?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by arthrodriver

Finally:So the LN fix is similar to a cam running in machined webs with oil feed holes?

No fist fights intended , but how about the oil analysis. They use it in aircraft engine analysis, right, flaps10?

Edit: You tube said something about an electronic monitor of the IMS??? Hype?

The LN bearings (non Solution) are ceramic hybrids that are sufficiently lubricated by the oil mist inside the engine. They do not require any other modifications to work, and some modifications actually reduce their effectiveness.

Oil analysis (that is, a complete analysis rather than a partial one) can tell you a lot about your oil, and a little about your engine. Some labs claim to be able to provide you with a complete analysis of your engine condition by looking at the oil, but you should take that with a grain of salt. They act more like a compass, giving you a sense of direction rather than a GPS telling you exactly where you are.

LN does produce an oil monitoring sensor (Guardian) which is effective, but only in limiting the amount of damage done when the IMS fails. It is not capable of preventing it from failing, only alerting you earlier in the failure process.

[mikefocke]

The LN ceramic bearing was designed with the cooperation of a bearing engineer who did predictive modeling. That engineer was retired from the bearing manufacture you probably think of first. He was also a Porsche owner.

Those materials and method of lubrication have now been installed over 12k times. I was initially skeptical of the testing done but time and miles have proven their design better than their initial cautious estimates and marketing materials.