IMS replaced with roller bearing?
 

I'm looking at a 2004 and the current owner had the IMS replaced with a roller bearing, not the LN retrofit. The guy at the shop who installed it says this is a better solution than the LN.

Without igniting past wars here, can someone give me a primer on roller bearings, and whether or not this is a good solution to the IMS issue?

Thanks!

Diving for cover!!!:D

Yeah, sorry! I was surprised to hear that they went with this solution, and just don't know if it's viable.

I'm not going to debate with JR or his minions, but I will say that I am a mechanical engineer (MS, electrical - BS, manufacturing - BS), have researched the loads on the IMSB and have whole-heartedly decided on a roller bearing if and when I replace mine. A roller can handle the load far better than balls. To be fair, real world doesn't always match the numbers. JR has a ton of experience, but he is also very far from unbiased.
He will be in shortly to say the opposite due to loads, thrust or RPMs.

Food for thought: the trans input uses a roller bearing and it spins faster than the IMS. How often do we hear of those failing? Of course, loads are different.

Also, note the report posted on rennlist yesterday of a ceramic LNE IMS retrofit that failed after 30k miles.
Interesting read.

Interesting perspective from an engineer who clearly understands how to read the bearing specification tables.
The input bearing you mention - is that a grease-filled ,sealed bearing ? Or is it splash lubricated with gearbox oil?

I've never had one in my hands, but the replacement appears to be a greased and sealed roller.

Again, Jake has tons of experience with the M96 while I have very little. I'm not saying he's not correct, just that I would go with a roller on my car based on past experience and tons of studying/research.

http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/a...E83B7FFEDD.jpg

Thank you, particlewave!

Don't thank me yet. Things will get ugly when the other side shows up. Then you'll be really confused. ;)

I would put my flame suit on, but I'd rather just slip quietly out the back. I don't have it in me to debate anymore, which is why I'm just giving my personal opinion.

Minus the flames, this thread had some good info on that topic.
Went a little long and ugly before it got locked. Read With Caution:

http://986forum.com/forums/boxster-parts-sale-wanted/54949-porsche-engines-sale.html

Here is what I put in my car after much research. Take a minute and watch the video.
https://vimeo.com/89968767

All I have to say is in their video, they use MY tool to extract their bearing. Had we not invented the IMS Retrofit, none of this would be possible.

Lots more could be said, but it doesn't need to be.

The more solutions the better. That is how the market works.

Bob would you tell us what that procedure costs please.

I had 125000 km on the original dual row bearing in my 99, I was putting the car up to do maintenance over the past winter. Pulled the old bearing because the seals were shot and no grease inside the bearing. I had no metal in filter.

The supplier I used is 986online.com- Boxster Home -Porsche Boxster Parts And Accessories and they recommended the EPS IMS solution. They stated they had sold +250 of these to shops +250 to individuals and have only had one come back on them that the person admitted they failed at the install. No other failures.

I found it an easy install for myself - I have about 3,000 km on it now - all seems fine - I will let you know in another 150.000 km if it was any good, but till then I have no real idea.

I do not know if one is better than the other. Just letting you know what I did.

Particlewave,
Great photo - is that the gearbox input shaft bearing we were discussing?

Assuming you're ditching the factory bearing and are replacing it with the LN, the roller bearing Kinda fixes a non-existent problem imho. The likelihood of failure during the LN's intended mileage, is very slim.
Let's say for the sake of argument the roller bearing is x% more effective than the ball bearing, you're already in rarefied air to begin with. Do you really need that extra x% if it comes with some unknown variables (largely because so few roller bearings have seen high mileage) that are unique to the roller bearing approach?

Either way, the point is to get rid of the factory bearing. All bearings, whether roller or ball bearing have a lifespan in this particular application. if you're still on the original, don't know the exact history of your car's servicing, and have a single row, you should get your head examined.

I have a Tiptronic so it was easier to pull the whole motor and trans. I had my Indy mechanic do everything he could while it was out to make the car more reliable. My car is a 1997 with only 40K miles on it but it is 18 years old. I had him replace the IMSB with the EPS solution, which was not too much money for the kit. He is the one who suggested the EPS. He is from Germany and is factory trained and worked for Brumos Porsche for 26 years as their lead mechanic and had his hands in every engine that went out of their dealership, including their race cars. I had researched most every option available for the IMS and the EPS solution seemed the best. I also had him replace the water pump (starting to get play in it), the front motor mount, plugs and plug tubes, air/oil separator (a known problem part that will suck oil thru your engine if it goes bad), fuel and air filter, every rubber hose in the engine compartment. I spent about $2200 on the whole thing but have put over 5k miles on it since then. I run it hard and have had no problems.

I hope all these adventurous folks who are trying out the roller bearing IMSB will keep reporting progress like Bob is. All the hot air on IMSB is irrelevant compared to long term performance.
Thanks for the data point Bob.

I couldn't agree more Pdwight! I love the image. Popcorn here please! :) And beer...:cheers: and maybe we should call the pizza dude too! :)

Jake. thanks for all you do to help promote and keep our cars on the road.

Damn! I would drive my car down to Florida for that price. I too have a Tip trans and like you said the motor and trans are pulled at the same time. I was quoted $4,000 just for an IMSB Solution at a Porsche specialty shop here in KC.

What is the LN bearings intended mileage?

I hate to stir this pot.....but
 

Wouldn't any of the replacement bearings be superior to the original.......and if most gave you 75 to 125 K miles that would be the life of most engines ??

Now I am talking about just pulling the transmission and replacing the bearing , not a total engine rebuild that goes into more money than these cars are really worth from a monetary standpoint

Oh and Pizza

https://media3.giphy.com/media/HfDduwaex9cGs/200.gif

Wow! That does seem like a nice deal. Was your old motor mount bad? And since you replaced all of the rubber tubing, does it seem any more smooth? I've been thinking about doing my hoses because of old age.

I have to say I'm stunned that you have a Porsche trained mechanic that did all that work for only $2200. I also have a Tip and over three years ago paid $1,800 to have the LN IMS replacement and updated RMS installed and that was a bargain price back then. Your mechanic needs to franchise and open shops nationally at those prices he would have a huge following.

Too often we are seeing shops have their opinions swayed from a profit perspective. They may not have any experience with something that they are recommending, yet they support it because its the part that helps their bottom line the most.

This is usually because it's cheap and may even be falsely advertised as "patent pending" or by stating the parts are German, when they are actually fitted with a Romanian bearing.

Too often the shop doesn't care; if something fails they just blame the part, throw up their hands and say its not their problem.

As the retrofit that we invented becomes more mainstream, thats what the industry has dealt with. Lots more motivates recommendations than just a component design, or benefit, and as a consumer you need to base things on m ore than one recommendation.

[QUOTE=Jake Raby;446239]Too often we are seeing shops have their opinions swayed from a profit perspective. They may not have any experience with something that they are recommending, yet they support it because its the part that helps their bottom line the most.

I would imagine that most of these Porsche shops have experience with Porsche engines.



Too often the shop doesn't care; if something fails they just blame the part, throw up their hands and say its not their problem.

Isn't this what you do? Blame the installer because he didn't pay you to take a class and be on your "approved" list?

That's good business in my book. Gets the part installed properly and keeps his name good.

Unfortunately the high price causes people to look at alternatives.

$4,000 to have Jake's IMS Solution installed in my car. Why not just drive it till it breaks and put another engine in it. After all the odds are in the car owners favor that it will not fail.

Oops, wrong door. Don't mind me, folks. Nothing to see here.

Jake, I see you referenced me AGAIN in your post. This is why I decided to give you a quick answer, but you might not like it. It will definitely lower your and LN's ratings. Recently, I praised you publicly for your good work, IMS solution, and even recommended your solution to my customer! I was hoping you will stop self-praising on the forums, but I see there will be no end to it. This is why I have decided to present everyone with the straight facts so everyone else will see how you love the self-serving stuff on the forums. You really are unlucky today because we do have yet another LN bearing which is already starting to fail, slowly but surely. You accused me on rennlist of fabricating the failures. First LN failure we mentioned on this forum- bearing was completely destroyed. I knew we would get back to this subject, but never thought it would be so quick. Second LN failure we had in our shop was when customer from Ca sent his core in exchange for our rebuilt motor. He started a tread on rennlist, we also started one on this forum. So you can fully understand the situation, I buy 4-6 Porsches from auction per month. I try to find cars with low mileage and minimal damage. Once I get them in, we remove the engines, transmissions to resell here in US. Then, we ship these cars to our shop in Poland, where these cars get another European engine installed. That way we do not have to send our European engines to US. I have purchased 7 cars like that within the last month. Before we remove these motors we test them, record a video, and upgrade IMS, rms, water pump, etc...
Here's your bad luck: one of those engines (3.6l) had LN bearing installed, 52k miles on the motor. We always remove the factory bearings from used engines and install our roller ims bearing upgrade. BTW Jake, we use Japanese bearing, not Romanian. Let me know if you need one, I can send you a new set, which is easier to install too (you said you had problems with our original set). We made it simpler after your complain that it took to long to install.
Anyway, the bearing removed from that 3.6l motor with 52k miles was LN single row. I doubt it was there from the start, it's a 2003 so I assume it has been "upgraded" maybe 20k miles ago. Today, I have removed this bearing (using your tool) and took it apart because it was a little bit loose adn was making a slight noise. It appeared ok at first, but upon further inspection it turned out to be much more loose than it should be and it got me curious to see what the races look like. I have pictures :) For comparison, I have both LN bearings in pics, one I removed today, and the other from that customer's engine (failure#2).
Regarding your IMS removal tool, you claim you were the first one to invent it. Wrong. I have removed many bearings, mostly motorcycle (I race since I was very young) which have similar design, with different tools available in Europe and worldwide. They have been invented a long time before you did. It might not have been the same tool, but essentially provided the same function. Take a look at the bearing which is just starting to wear out, it's nicely visible under a magnifying glass.
I will not get into another debate with you. There is no way to win with you. My every argument gets a counter argument from you. You will wear me out trying to convince me that you're right, it's a waste of my time and energy. I know what I know, some other engineers and experienced mechanics also know what I'm talking about. I will not try to convince you because it makes no sense. You have to stand by your design and your products.
Regarding that: we do stand by our products, if anything should ever happen, we will help our customers, unlike LN which always blames the installer, engine or misalignment. Our bearings are working ok, no failures so far, how is that possible? You have just recently discovered a "misalignment" issue, and you now sugest that our customer's bearing failed because of that. You created another new issue which has really nothing to do with it. You have to realize there are many other misalighments in this car, it's not an F1 or Moto GP motor, which costs 1.5 million dollars. These engines have no misalignments, every single part has to be perfect because it can cost them a spot on a podium. These teams spend millions on racing and they don't fool around. I have seen this with my own eyes, I race motorcycles and I know what I'm talking about. Factory accounts for the possible misalignment when they release their engines, but again these are not million dollar motors from F1 or Moto GP. Therefore it's supposed to last long enough to run. Factory engineers have calculated the possible misalignments in different components. BTW, there is a flexible chain connecting ims shaft with crank shaft and that allows for the alignment to be off.It's not a transmission case where shafts have to fit ideally and there is no tolerance of play. Why the factory allows bigger misalignment in engines but not as much in transmissions? They know it will work.
If I were you I wouldn't waste time thinking about misalignment but instead try to find the correct material which will withstand a small bearing with big load. Until then, use your solution and leave us and others alone and let them use roller bearings. I don't have to sell my bearings, I make enough money on repairing engines and selling used motors. I don't care if I sell another roller bearing, or if people will buy it from Vertex or someone else. If I cared about it I would be everywhere talking about it. If someone wants to buy it great, if not, I don't care or tell them what to do.
How come we see your bearings failing all the time? Either you're extremely unlucky or we are extremely lucky! I will not be surprised if one day I buy an insurance auction car with one of your motors. I will definitely take it apart to see how the nickies are doing.
I have attached pics of both bearings. The one I have removed today has minimal wear, but it's already visible. If you look closely you will find tiny spots of wear on outer race. There are tiny spots on inner race too, very minimal and hard to see. The material on both races is starting to peel, and as bearing gets more worn out it gets loose.


http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1429747781.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1429748467.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1429748617.jpg
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1429748816.jpg

Picture of our used engines, we removed LN bearing from one of these:http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1429748702.jpg

Picture of our customer's outer race:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1429749011.jpg

Picture of our Japanese roller bearing:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1429749107.jpg

Our kit:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1429749211.jpg

Comes with a handle to hold the bolt during installation:
http://986forum.com/forums/uploads01...1429749260.jpg

I'm currently working on an IMS pattent which will be your IMS solution competition. It's not for sale yet, once I get a prototype and pattent pending everyone will hear about it. I thought of it after our last public fight. Jake and other forum members were my inspiration. I heard your voice and I listened. People are looking for inexpensive, DIY IMS that will be easy to install and work forever. All I can tell you is when it comes out people will have another great IMS option to install in their cars, and will save money on engine repairs from then on. There will be no pre-qualification needed, and this will be the last part to break inside of any motor. Even if it breaks, it will have no effect on that engine. Customer will be able to drive the car home or to the shop to get it replaced. This is what Porsche owners need and asked for, they will save money on engine repair once it comes out! I plan on including my IMS pattent in all of our engines. It will also be available for sale and easy DIY installation. Believe it or not, I'm having the Germans make my prototype! They have been running a machine shop for the last 45 years, and they work wonders. Solid German work!

Just interested in the technical here: how are these folks accommodating thrust loads?
Are they mimimal or resolved ont the other end? Are they reying on oil film for thrust? What is the flow loss from oil pump as a result? Are there thrust load start up wear concerns if the IM shaft drains out

Martin,
Let me help you with identifying the bearing you have in your photo. I suggest it is not the LN Single Row Pro. There are not enough balls and there is only a single row ball race.
http://lnengineering.com/resources/2014/03/07/single-row-pro-ims-retrofit/
So to clarify, whose bearing is this -perhaps just another hybrid single row 6204-1RS? Like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-PCS-6204-2RS-20x47x14-mm-Hybrid-Ceramic-Si3N4-Rubber-Sealed-Bearing-Bearings-/291422240233?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43da1e 7de9
or this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/6204-2RS-Hybrid-Ceramic-Si3N4-Bearing-20x47x14-Nylon-Premium-ABEC-5-/360461702926?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ed31 170e
Unless we confirm exactly what product we are discussing ,this will be a pointless mess.
BTW congratulations on developing your plain bearing solution to the IMSB issue. Seriously- this is USA ,we like competition !

roller bearing or lm's solution pick your flavor but for one I would never ever put a NTN bearing in my car, they have got to be one of the cheapest and crappy bearings I have ever come across!

It's 100% Ln bearing. Has LN serial number on the bearing and the flange. Our customer has called LN, and they confirmed it's their product, but have offered no help with the issue. It's documented by our customer in this rennlist tread:LN Engineering Ceramic IMS Bearing Failure at 30k miles - Rennlist Discussion Forums
The bearing we removed today is the same exact bearing, and has the same markings on bearing and the flange. It's just starting to wear out a little bit, but it does appear more loose than it should be.

Everybody has a choice, you might as well install Ln bearing, it's up to you. In the mean time, all of our roller bearings are fine, but Ln seems to fail sometimes...A lot of people say they would never buy a Toyota, whereas others drive these cars everyday and have no problems with it. There are many different opinions out there. You can also compare Toyota vs Porsche. Most people would choose a Porsche, but it's more problematic than a Toyota. Toyota owners do not loose sleep over it, and certainly do not experience as many failures as Porsche owners.

Yes our cars have some issues, buttttt

Porsche Tops J.D. Power Initial Quality Study for Second Consecutive Year

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/automobiles/porsche-tops-jd-power-initial-quality-study-for-second-consecutive-year.html

Also Toyota had a major issue with sludge build up on their V6 engines in early 2000 models, those engines were in the Camry, Solara, Lexus ES300, Lexus RX330. How they kept it so quite I don't know.

http://www.autosafety.org/toyota-broadens-sludge-repair-program

Oh yeah I remember that! maybe toyota has a better PR team or media cover up team lol!

Take a look at the referenced Rennlist thread

Since when does an LN bearing come with an outer seal installed?

It comes with outer seal, not inner seal. We have removed the rear seal to take this bearing apart.