What oil?

[Allen K. Littlefield]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

I fix them for a living, and yes there are better cars than this one, just as there are better IMS bearings than the OEM unit (one company has already has over 18,000 replacements installed), and considerably better oils than Mobil 1.

But if you want to continue to drink the Kool Aid, be my guest...........

JFP, wasn't there some info. about the zinc content being harmful to the catalytic converters? Seems like we change problems, any insight?

Allen

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Allen K. Littlefield

JFP, wasn't there some info. about the zinc content being harmful to the catalytic converters? Seems like we change problems, any insight?

Allen

Yes, zinc is poisonous to catalytic converters, but the case for removing or lowering its content in engine oil is vastly overblown. By EPA law, the OEM manufacturer's are on the hook for the catalytic converters for 80,000 miles if they fail. So they lobbied the EPA to get zinc in the form of ZDDP reduced or even eliminated in engine oils on the basis that doing so would improve emissions by protecting the cats, and the EPA bought it. While it is easy to prove that the zinc kills the cats, the OEM's argument was purely a "straw man" to get out of having to pay for them if they crap out before 80K. If you watch how many cats actually fail early, you would see that not that many do, it is common to see cars in excess of 150K miles and the cats are fine. And of the cats that do fail, reports have noted that many of them failed because of gas additives, not zinc poisoning.

So we get saddled with low ZDDP oils, or oils with other metal salts replacing the ZDDP. Unfortunately, these alternative oil formulations do not demonstrate the same wear reduction characteristics that oils with high levels of ZDDP have, and often break down earlier, requiring shorter oil change intervals.

Based upon what we have seen, I prefer to stay with high ZDDP oils. ZDDP is very hard to beat for wear protection, I am yet to see anyone equal its performance with alternative compounds. And at the end of the day, the cats are a lot easier to replace than rebuilding or replacing an M96/97 engine.

[JayG]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Yes, zinc is poisonous to catalytic converters, but the case for removing or lowering its content in engine oil is vastly overblown. By EPA law, the OEM manufacturer's are on the hook for the catalytic converters for 80,000 miles if they fail. So they lobbied the EPA to get zinc in the form of ZDDP reduced or even eliminated in engine oils on the basis that doing so would improve emissions by protecting the cats, and the EPA bought it. While it is easy to prove that the zinc kills the cats, the OEM's argument was purely a "straw man" to get out of having to pay for them if they crap out before 80K. If you watch how many cats actually fail early, you would see that not that many do, it is common to see cars in excess of 150K miles and the cats are fine. And of the cats that do fail, reports have noted that many of them failed because of gas additives, not zinc poisoning.

So we get saddled with low ZDDP oils, or oils with other metal salts replacing the ZDDP. Unfortunately, these alternative oil formulations do not demonstrate the same wear reduction characteristics that oils with high levels of ZDDP have, and often break down earlier, requiring shorter oil change intervals.

Based upon what we have seen, I prefer to stay with high ZDDP oils. ZDDP is very hard to beat for wear protection, I am yet to see anyone equal its performance with alternative compounds. And at the end of the day, the cats are a lot easier to replace than rebuilding or replacing an M96/97 engine.

that being the case, what are the oils with highest ZDDP?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by JayG

that being the case, what are the oils with highest ZDDP?

Some of the Motul products, Joe Gibbs DT40 or "Hot Rod" oils.

[patssle]

Originally Posted by JFP in PA

Some of the Motul products, Joe Gibbs DT40 or "Hot Rod" oils.

They don't specify the ZDDP amounts in their specs though. Unless it's listed somewhere else I haven't found?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by patssle

They don't specify the ZDDP amounts in their specs though. Unless it's listed somewhere else I haven't found?

We had them tested.

[Allen K. Littlefield]

Originally Posted by JayG

that being the case, what are the oils with highest ZDDP?

Go back and read post #20. I think all those oils have increased levels. Correct me if I am wrong JFP or anyone else knowledgeable along these lines.

AKL

[Flavor 987S]

Originally Posted by JayG

that being the case, what are the oils with highest ZDDP?

Motorcycle oils. Diesel oils.

For example, with Mobil products:

0W40
1,000 ppm phos.
1,000 zinc

5W40 Turbo Diesel
1,100
1,200

20W50 V-Twin (motorcycle)
1,600
1,700