LN Engineering IMS KIt

[DickK]

Understand that you can buy a new Intermediate Shaft Bearing from LN Engineering for about $600. Does anyone have any ideal of the labor hours and cost from a good Porsche mechanic. Not from a Porsche Dealer.

[recycledsixtie]

A lot depends on where you live. I have been quoted $4400 for ims replacement, rms, clutch overall including parts by an indy shop. I believe it would be a lot cheaper in the US and you have more choices of places to install it. Of course check on the reputation of the installer.....
G

[Perfectlap]

Guys with no history of taking down a transmission have done this job in their garages. So its not a technically difficult procedure, it's a one day job. You figure four hours to take down the trans an hour to do the extraction (a special tool is required that makes it simple) and putting it it all back together.
So ballpark 10 hours. Around these parts shops charge between $80-$100. You also have to add the cost of a fresh oil change because the system has to be cleaned out after this job.

[steved0x]

Mine was $1350 at The Porsche Specialist in Broomhall, PA, including the bearing. I don't think you save any by buying the bearing directly and taking it to your mechanic. Try pcarshops.com for a list of shops in your area, some of which have reviews, and there is probably someone here on this forum near your area with a recommendation.

Steve

[trimer]

I was under 2600 with bearing and rms, oil change and filter, aos and oil filler tube.

[newob]

in Atlanta Georgia, i was qouted 600 in parts, 700 in labor from solo motorsports. - that is just the ims and the rms. i want some other stuff done, so looking more like 2200 or 2700 for clutch, flyweel resurface, rms, ims, and water pump.

[DickK]

Thanks all you guys for the information.

Dick

[Jake Raby]

Please don't price shop on this job. The job must be comprehensive and the engine needs to be pre-qualified to ensure it is healthy enough for the procedure.

Here's what our process entails so you can try to understand what needs to be done as its more than just throwing a bearing at the engine.
IMS Retrofit Service

[Trey T]

Why not go with OEM bearing? There hasn't been scientific fact regards to which is better. The catastrophic failure is a very low percentage, right?

Jake: When you say "comprehensive", what are mechanics not doing? To be supportive to this topic, I suggest that you list some of the tasks that you've seen or heard that mechanics are not doing. I've read the link you provided but that does not outline what's NOT comprehensive of previous jobs by mechanics out there.

btw, Jake: From your first line, are you demanding people not provide service cost estimate on a PUBLIC FORUM? Maybe your tone is a bit off there but that's what I'm getting at.

[coolbreeze551]

Originally Posted by Trey T

btw, Jake: From your first line, are you demanding people not provide service cost estimate on a PUBLIC FORUM? Maybe your tone is a bit off there but that's what I'm getting at.

I understood it as 'don't look for repair shops based on price, look at who will provide the best quality of service for this job as it needs to be done with attention and care'

Not trying to put words in anyones mouth, just saying how I understood it.

[Perfectlap]

^ I agree. And that being said the highest price is not necessarily the best place to do it. My independent has done several hundreds of these jobs and I'm pretty sure charge less for this job than some of the nearby competitors with a reputation for being expensive. I guess I should have clarified that experience is usually evidenced in a higher hourly rate than the nearby muffler shop, but as far as the job itself I'd take note of the number of hours a shop is estimating (should there be no issues) to see if you're getting a fair price. Flat rates scare me a little because that really can be a good thing or a very bad thing depending on the integrity and competency of the shop.
Either way, I would ask how many of these they've done in the past year. The key is experience. One of my mechanics pointed out that this is a job that while straight forward requires someone to be very, very careful. One hasty oversight can lead to big, big problems.

[Nine8Six]

Already said

.... (deleted)

[Jake Raby]

Too many shops are treating the IMS Retrofit like a brake job, therefore retrofitting every engine that comes in the door.

I interfaced with over 600 technicians in the classes that I instruct last year alone. When I begin my IMS section of that class I ask for a showing of hands of those who carry out inspections to grade engine health prior to beginning an IMSR procedure.

All year I had 5 people raise their hands. The common complaint was "We aren't getting paid to do that, or to pull the sump plate, so why should we be doing it?"

My response was "To cover your ass, and to ensure that the customer isn't wasting his money on an engine that has another issue".

Its not about how many IMS jobs any shop has done, we've done more than anyone in the world, including the first one. We treat every one like its the first one, follow the same protocol, gather the same information and do the same testing. With numbers come a false sense of accomplishment thats a lot like riding a motorcycle for years. Once you think you have mastered it, it will show you who the boss is. Your scars can remind you later.

Experience is both good and bad.

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Its not about how many IMS jobs any shop has done, we've done more than anyone in the world, including the first one. We treat every one like its the first one, follow the same protocol, gather the same information and do the same testing. With numbers come a false sense of accomplishment thats a lot like riding a motorcycle for years. Once you think you have mastered it, it will show you who the boss is. Your scars can remind you later.

Experience is both good and bad.

This is true, but as an owner I'm not going to pass up the shop that's done many more retrofits over the one that's done very few. The Porsche community, around these parts at least, is not a big one. These shops rely heavily on reputation for intergrity and competency to continue bringing in work. In the internet age, if you botch even one of these, word spreads very quickly. And folks are especially sensitive on hearing negative feedback about a shop when it comes to this topic. If a shop has tackled many of these jobs for several years now without nary a complaint on any of the of the various Porsche forums then as an owner that goes in the plus column. To me that speaks well not of the just the one mechanic who may have done the job but of the shop as a whole.

[Trey T]

Well, it's just a question and it's not the first time he said it on this forum.

Originally Posted by coolbreeze551

I understood it as 'don't look for repair shops based on price, look at who will provide the best quality of service for this job as it needs to be done with attention and care'

Not trying to put words in anyones mouth, just saying how I understood it.

[2TrunkSteve]

About 3 years ago I called around to a few local shops and found a tech that had been to Jake's class. I chose him for the IMSR and ended up finding him to be a great indy mechanic in the process. My final cost was more than the quotes you've seen here but I also did a whole bunch of "while we're there" stuff (IMS, clutch, water-pump/thermostat, AOS, coolant reservoir, engine mount, coils/plugs/seals and the front brakes). He was thourough in evaluating the engine and determining condition, including removing the sump plate and inspecting (analyzing) the oil and filter.

I didn't necessarily realize it at the time, but the fact that an experienced Porsche tech traveled out of state to take a class over a weekend showed a higher level interest in Porsches beyond the other shops. Good luck with your search!

[Jake Raby]

if you botch even one of these, word spreads very quickly.

Not really, unless you have a large exposure.
Case in point (that was never spread online or otherwise):

This pic shows how a botched IMS Retrofit procedure killed an entire engine, without even harming the IMSB!

The owner of the car had a local shop carry out an IMSR. They were a prominent shop on the east coast that had about 60 retrofits under their belts. The job was carried out and all was well for about 100 miles. The owner was then driving down the road and heard a loud bang all of a sudden, then the engine died. He tried to restart it and the engine only had 3 cylinders.

A timing chain was found hanging out of the cam cover, and he knew what that meant. He called me up, asked what it would cost to fix, then after I gave him our timing chain replacement/ failure cost breakdown he asked if I wanted to buy the car. He sent pics and I bought it... Then hit fast forward.

The car arrived and the chain was hanging out of the cam cover, for sure. I had one of my guys pull the engine and I decided to take it apart to document what happened to cause the failure. Chains do break, but its generally not this radical, so I was interested to see what the root was.

What you see here is the result of someone who didn't have the correct mindset during the procedure. They didn't realize that there's two different lengths of bell house bolt and they installed a long bolt in a shallow hole. They were in a rush and decided to use an impact wrench, so they just hammered it in, and didn't realize that the longer bolt blew a hole right through the crankcase and directly into the timing chain well!!!!!!

So, the chunk of aluminum that blew out of the case was picked up in 100 miles by the timing chain, where it effectively was fed between the exhaust cam sprocket and the chain, thus stretching the chain to a point of failure and creating an at speed failure of massive proportions with every part of the engine impacted/ wasted in some way. When the chain snapped so quickly, it wrapped around the spinning exhaust cam and blew the hole through the cam cover.

So, there ya have it. People working against the clock create issues all the time as its incentive to rush and do a quicker job, rather than a better job.

You won't find a clock in any work area here. In fact the only clock in the entire facility is in the customer waiting area. When I travel to instruct classes I'll usually pop in one some well known shops in the area that I am in, especially if they buy a lot of products. There's been a few times that after I showed up somewhere that I was shocked at how loosely the processes were being carried out. By the same taken a few places blew me away with their attention to detail. That number is like 5 across all of North America, and they were generally the lesser known shops.

You can rush failure, but its impossible to rush success.

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Not really, unless you have a large exposure.
Case in point (that was never spread online or otherwise):

This pic shows how a botched IMS Retrofit procedure killed an entire engine, without even harming the IMSB!

The owner of the car had a local shop carry out an IMSR. They were a prominent shop on the east coast that had about 60 retrofits under their belts. The job was carried out and all was well for about 100 miles. The owner was then driving down the road and heard a loud bang all of a sudden, then the engine died. He tried to restart it and the engine only had 3 cylinders.

A timing chain was found hanging out of the cam cover, and he knew what that meant. He called me up, asked what it would cost to fix, then after I gave him our timing chain replacement/ failure cost breakdown he asked if I wanted to buy the car. He sent pics and I bought it... Then hit fast forward.

The car arrived and the chain was hanging out of the cam cover, for sure. I had one of my guys pull the engine and I decided to take it apart to document what happened to cause the failure. Chains do break, but its generally not this radical, so I was interested to see what the root was.

What you see here is the result of someone who didn't have the correct mindset during the procedure. They didn't realize that there's two different lengths of bell house bolt and they installed a long bolt in a shallow hole. They were in a rush and decided to use an impact wrench, so they just hammered it in, and didn't realize that the longer bolt blew a hole right through the crankcase and directly into the timing chain well!!!!!!

So, the chunk of aluminum that blew out of the case was picked up in 100 miles by the timing chain, where it effectively was fed between the exhaust cam sprocket and the chain, thus stretching the chain to a point of failure and creating an at speed failure of massive proportions with every part of the engine impacted/ wasted in some way. When the chain snapped so quickly, it wrapped around the spinning exhaust cam and blew the hole through the cam cover.

So, there ya have it. People working against the clock create issues all the time as its incentive to rush and do a quicker job, rather than a better job.

You won't find a clock in any work area here. In fact the only clock in the entire facility is in the customer waiting area. When I travel to instruct classes I'll usually pop in one some well known shops in the area that I am in, especially if they buy a lot of products. There's been a few times that after I showed up somewhere that I was shocked at how loosely the processes were being carried out. By the same taken a few places blew me away with their attention to detail. That number is like 5 across all of North America, and they were generally the lesser known shops.

You can rush failure, but its impossible to rush success.

Kind of reinforces the idea that while there is usually only one way to do something correctly, there are an infinite number of ways to get it wrong.........

[Jake Raby]

JFP, this one came from your neck of the woods... (No, JFP did NOT do it!)