kit car
 

you know, with all the dead boxsters floating around - blown engines, accidented, written-off, water damaged, etc., you would think someone would make a tube chassis that used boxster running gear - suspension, brakes, steering, transmission, etc. it would be light and make a heck of a go-kart regardless of what engine you used. add a fiberglass body and off to the races (literally). cut and paste your vin tags, add some fit-up and you could have a street car.

no idea what body to use, however. most kits are recreations of some sort, and the kits that try to create something new tend to look god-awful or way dated. something that riffed on a dino 246 theme would really work for me. I was thinking of a 904 body (keep it Porsche) Ginetta G12 body (lotus elise with torque) or perhaps a jag xk13 body, but the jury is still out for me.

crazy?

Good idea but one that requires expert level fab skills to pull it off. Tremendous amount of work too. A 904 bodied Boxster S would be so cool though.
I've been wishing someone would start buying up all the Boxster rollers and turning them into electric cars. The batteries could go where the fuel tank was and they'd have close to 50/50 weight distribution and could be as quick or quicker than stock.

Not an electric car. God no. What would THAT cost.
If you want something really efficient the tech is already out there, its called turbo diesel. Proven, economical, and great torque. They actually sell diesel fuel at most gas stations.
Not sure why there is any push for electric vehicles. I don't think the tech is quite there, its a hassle to use as a DD, not any charging stations, huge initial cost, on and on.
If I want a lightweight, over priced, expensive "look at me, Im a great liberal" electric car, I could buy a Tesla for about 100k.
Or I can buy a nice older boxster for every day of the week with that money.
Or a few older boxsters, a 1956 replica and a 550 replica.

for the 904 i watch this guy for inspiration:

The Porsche 904 Project Page

located (relatively) nearby in bc, and sells fiberglass bodies for 904s. i think these guys could make the tube frame:

Sports car race pan VW type 1 chassis

Awwww man, I was dreaming of making my own RS out of a roached out early 911. But now I want a 904!!!!

Since we're on the subject, a while back Beck (of 550 kit car fame/not the musician) was working on a 904 kit. Why not drop the Boxster S running gear into it?

Turbo diesel efficient? Compared to what, exactly? Not electric, that's for sure...
20-40% max efficiency is the lack thereof.

different thread, but from a macro-environmental view, hydrocarbons make electricity, than you have the conversion losses, transmission losses, net present value of building/operating/replacing the new infrastructure required to fuel electric vehicles, disposal issues around batteries vs an iron lump of an engine, etc. a direct comparison of the efficiencies of internal combustion vs electric power isn't that fair. and don't get me started on dams ...

and back to ... kit car made out of boxster running gear!

Electric.
Just make sure you factor in the initial costs.
If electric is so cheap, easy to use, convenient, provides good driving range, etc, etc, I think we would see a lot more commercial vehicles using them instead of a handful of tree huggers.

Heck, I had a jetta tdi that I would see 50mpg if I kept it at 60 mph on a flat highway. A tank of fuel would provide close to 500 miles of travel. The car cost less than 24k brand new. That's pretty cheap operating costs if you ask me.

And btw....you can get abt 300k miles out of a well maintained TD, with those electric cars, what do you think the replacement costs of the batteries is once they give out in significantly less miles?
Electric just isn't there yet. Right now its nothing more than a "feel good" choice that is politically charged. Ha, again, no pun intended!

Its a good idea!
think the kit car market took a really bad beating with the crash. No pun intended.
Id love to see some of those Porsche replicas use Boxster parts instead of crummy, no power VW stuff.

Economy and efficiency are two different things ;)
I'm talking about use of energy and losses from an engineering standpoint, not your wallet.

Im all for the use of nuclear power, but again the tree huggers have a problem with that.

My back ground is accounting. To me efficiency is how much for how much, very simply put.

No offense to you personally, but saying things like this is counter productive. ;)
There is a reason that so much money and research is being invested into furthering the tech. Tree huggers? You should hug one for providing that oxygen you're breathing. :p
We all should. This is, after all, our home...Our children's home.
And I'm out...one cannot change the mind of another, but simply open a window and hope they uncover their eyes and see the light.

Best wishes! :)

A big reason a lot of the R and D money has swirled down the toilet is as I said before, its a very politically charged goal.
Im not saying it will never work, Im saying right now today its poor from a cost efficiency stand point. That's all.

May I ask how many electric vehicles you currently own?

Yes you may...2.5 ;)

I don't want to turn this into a back-and-forth about electric vehicles on TRK's thread, so I'll just edit this one. I've been involved with several projects since 1999, and we are currently building one at the university engineering department, so I'm very aware of the economics and engineering difficulties. There's a way to go yet, but the tech is getting there...we are going to have to quit selfishly burning things at some point.

How about this part?
"If electric is so cheap, easy to use, convenient, provides good driving range, etc, etc, I think we would see a lot more commercial vehicles using them."

Thanks for those links Radiumking- I see where your coming from! Good to know I can get a 904 fiberglass body, although he says he makes only one 962 and one 904 per year.

it would be an epic build - the frame vendor I linked to already has experience tying in to Porsche running gear, and the 904 body doesn't look that difficult to graft on. the devil is in the (many) details in something like this, however.

these guys to a g12 body:

DARE UK - Products - G12

and these guys do an xk13 body:

SCF XJ13

Here, Here. Let the market dictate winners and losers, not the government. They've proven over and over to be not very good at it.

Taxpayers lose $139 million on Fisker Automotive loan | The Daily Caller

I prefer the 904 and 962.

The cost of tech goes down with time. But you already know that.

The electric hybrid 918 Spyder just blew a .50 caliber hole into the N-ring lap record for a production car (one you can actually drive on the street and not go to jail).

I followed a Tesla Model S on the way to Miami back in Sept. and anyone who thinks electric cars are liberal/political ploy have been listening to too much talk radio. That's 400+ HP of INSTANT rubber-melting kick. I haven't seen a car that big take off from 60mph maybe ever. Eventually that tech will filter down to 'budget' sports cars like the FRS. Given that the average sports car is only driven ocassionally and doesn't really need the significantly higher expense of long range capacity batteries (short range will be more than enough) it will be the perfect platform for instant power off braking/turns.

Also, the Tesla 'Super Charger' can juice a car with a 100+ miles of use in about the time it takes the average drained iphone to hit 20%, 30 minutes. Pull in, eat lunch. done.

I saw a TV show maybe 9 years ago where there was a Carrera GT kit put onto a Boxster. Looked good on TV, but you could see flaws also.
At Rennsport reunion IV in Montery I talked to Beck's son. They had a running 904 replica & said M96 engine was a option.
BBI/IPD is working on a 550 spyder replica with 500+HP potential from a Porsche engine. I realize I'm not directly addressing your OP, but it's closer than most posts here.

Great!! The 918 Spyder is what, 900,000 DOLLARS??? Wow, at that price Ill buy 2!!!
The Tesla is built on a Lotus Elise chassis. I had a brand new Lotus Elise. It cost abt 45k brand new.
The Tesla Roadster is what, 110k??
I think Ill stick with the Lotus, performance figures aren't that different.
Eventually that tech will filter down to budget sportscars like an frs....Yeah, but Im not sure Ill be driving by then.
We already have gas cars that can melt the rubber off powering out of turns.

The range of the Tesla isn't that bad considering, but as it stands right now I have to drive abt 30-40 miles to get to fun roads so then what do I do when I need a charge to get back home?

Im not saying its no good, just that its not ready for prime time yet. The 918 is "hardly" a production car in the typical sense and at over 900k, its a far cry from trickling down to the average joe, or even someone fairly well to do. That's a pipe dream.

We have dumped probably billions in the R and D for this stuff collectively because in 500 years we will run out of oil. Thas why its politically charged. We haven't even begun to drill for our own oil, even though by all accounts we are potentially oil rich. Why? Again, politically charged.

Heck, Ford makes a Fiesta for the European market that gets over 60mpg and the car is as cheap as dirt. Im just pointing out there are other alternatives that don't cost nearly as much. Turbo diesel doesn't have the same political left wing flair as electric though.
If you want high mpg and performance at a relatively low cost, the tech is already there. No need to reinvent the wheel.
But I guess spending what we don't have is also a bi product of those socially-politically charged folks.

Hey man, your money, buy what you want but im just wondering why electric car lovers are still slumming in gas powered (under powered?) Porsches.

Have you seen the chassis of the 550 replica? A lot less than 500hp will twist that chassis up like a pretzel methinks.

I think the 904 is probably the easiest, and purest (keeping it all Porsche) project. I don't think the scale on the 550 is right for a boxster, and I've heard about the beck and thunder ranch 904 copies but out of my price range. and really, their offerings are bespoke cars. I'm thinking more custom tube frame, swing over the boxster running gear, then add body. then the details.

the thing about the 904 is that is was all fiberglass straight from porsche, like a factory kit car. so, the fit and finish (the part that kills most amateur car builders) is pretty easy to attain. note the doors/side glass on the 904 - simple. dash - simple. hinges and latches - simple.

well, simple-ish. it would probably die an unfinished project, after nightmare struggles with custom brake lines, properly aligning doors, hours of wet-sanding, etc.

Maybe if it was delivered as a rolling chassis.....
Take a look at what RCR is making. I know they were making a 917 or something kit car. pricey.

Porsche charge you $900K for a 918 Spyder because they can. Much like a Rolex is not really a $6,000 watch but really a watch that can be made for $800 by ETA, a great deal of the tech behind that car is propietary but it won't be long before others (Asia) with less cache can produce similar technology for buyers who demand more value on a cost basis. The Tesla Model S is now price-competitve with virtually every mass produced Porsche and Lexus and (globally) is close to matching Porsche's production numbers for North America in 2009. And this before the Tesla SUV and entry level cars have been offered. When the market is fed up with old way of filling up a car and are presented an alternative they have evidently grabbed it with both hands. And much like Apple plowed the market with the first all touch screen phone six years ago for a lofty price, Xiaomi of China can now offer a phone like the Mi3, with all of the same tech of an iPhone for what used to be the price of a flip phone. The same will happen with high HP hybrid and electric cars. When you're talking about a global market, and no longer just a U.S. market, cost of production plummets at a rate we've not seen before.



Dumped? Well that's an interesting way of describing R&D.

Whatever we have spent on R&D for electric engines we will get back 10 fold when you extricate the average consumer from an oil market that is NOT priced on supply and demand. The price action of oil is and will always be priced on the EXPECTATION of demand.

How will we ever know how much oil we need vs. how much oil is left? The only way the expectation of demand can go down, enough to actually lower/sustain the prices bidders are willing to pay, particularly those subsidized by central govts like China that 'artificially' raise those bids, is if those unknowns, of future demand vs. future supply, become certainties. And that's impossible because there isn't a single market for commodities, equities or any other, that is static. And more importantly, the way oil is and will always be traded favors drastic fluctuations in price action and higher and higher prices. Those wild swings create an unending paranoia amongst bidders so that they feel they will always need to bid at escalating levels to secure their share of production. These bidders are not going to back off because some biased market research assure us that there is plenty more oil and peak oil just a myth. They look at production from the largest producers in OPEC who can no longer hide the fact that their levels are falling. The global bidders of oil have looked at the broader market and are convinced that any new oil production in best case scenarios (like a huge spike in U.S. production) will not keep pace with the hundreds of millions of new oil consumers in emerging markets using very inefficient and cheap engines. Basically the bidders firmly believe that tens of millions of new motorists outside of America will devour whatever we can produce domestically. And you can't argue with the market. Which is an oil speculators and broker's dream come true. Who in their right mind wants to rely on a market like that? Who wants to run a business when a 20% spike in price volatility in a single month (putting you at a net loss instantly) is entirely possible and likely? That's the equivalent of buying a house with a variable rate when everyone and their sister is telling you that rates are about to explode.

Rolex is still a manufacture not ETA ;)

Well that's quite verbose.
Keep it pithy!!
:)
You addressed basically what you wanted and left what you didn't want to touch alone.
Hey, Im all for progress but not for reinventing the wheel just to spite the wheel.
Im just pointing out that if we want high mpg/high performance, there are other options that are much further along. That's my main point and one no one has disputed here so far.
It feels good to say were going electric just to stick it up OPEC's arse, and Im just saying the tech isn't quite there yet, and the billions we have spent, subsidized, and granted to R and D may have been better spent elsewhere. That's subjective, I know.
What isn't subjective is the fact we probably have more oil than almost anyone, especially considering our shale extraction or whatever that is less invasive than traditional drilling. We choose not to pursue many avenues based strictly on political/social view points. Fact. There is NO shortage, only oil companies and the politicians in their pockets telling you so to justify exorbitant costs.
Look, if you love electric cars as they stand today, go buy one. God bless if you can get a 918. Btw, Porsche can charge 900k because there are no other options, not because they are Porsche. Rolex has competitors that make pricey, high quality watches. There are other brands to choose from that tell time and impress with label.
Again, I like progress, I think one day soon electric MAY be a great choice for the average consumer, but it just isn't ready yet and what bothers me is there are companies that will be happy to take your money anyway just so you can "feel good."

no disrespect, but try starting your own thread for this (and perhaps delete your posts here).

No disrespect?
I didn't bring up the electric option in a kit car, merely commented on others who did.
The OP wanted a cost effective choice for a kit car, not a 400k dollar kit car.
No disrespect but please mind your own posts but if you are going to be a thread cop then address everyone involved rather than singling 1 guy out.
btw, maybe you should delete YOUR posts here, no disrespect of course.

You are correct. You also know the point I was getting at!:D

No haven't seen anything other than the shop @ BBI/IPD & talking to a guy there.
The current Excellence mag has a article on the chassis/engine tuning BBI did for Jeff Zwart's GT3.

Ya know, Beck makes a very nice replica, if you want brand new its delivered as a rolling chassis but nice, used examples well sorted can be had for less than 30k.

Not sure what they want for this one, but take a look if youre not familiar with the kits.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Replica-Kit-Makes-Other-PORSCHE-550-RE-CREATION-1956-porsche-550-spyder-re-creation-only-150-miles-/291017694151?forcerrptr=true&hash=item43c2019bc7&i tem=291017694151&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

I think I know what you are saying. Probably the most successful manufacturer is "Factoryfive racing" They make a 65-67 Cobra kit car designed to bolton 87-93 Mustang powertrain & suspension components. This is so popular they now make about 10 different kits mostly Ford based.
I worked for Shelby American 2+ years on the Shelby Series 1 project. This project had the full cooperation of GM & most of thier parts vendors, but after 4 years, still failed to meet my fit & finish expectations for a $150K sportcar.

Hey Bill, speaking about Factory Five, have you seen their new mid engine design that uses a Subaru engine?

There is an article on Grassroots magazine and also a F5 ad that offers two kits, one for 9k (street version) and 10k for the track version...

The concept looks great (if you can ignore the S2000 look alike face..) but a well designed track toy for 10k plus a Subbie donor car sounds great IMHO

Regards, Gilles

.

Id pay the upcharge and buy Superformance.

I'd invoke my employee discount + a upcharge & buy the Shelby kit!

Yeah, I've seen it but I like cars I can drive anytime & anywhere. I like driving the WRXs,but Subaru engines are far from the top of my list for transplants.

The Shelby kit isn't necessarily an upgrade.
I have experience with both. The Shelby kits are more expensive and a total biatch to work with as compared to the SPF.
Honestly I give a slight nod to SPF however subjective that may be as I think the total quality is slightly better. Not much. That and the fact the Shelby kit is harder to install the exhaust. A lot harder.
That said I wouldn't argue with either one. :)
I had an SPF GT-40 that I put the motor and trans in myself, I loved that car. Before settling on the GT-40 I looked real hard at Shelby and the SPF Cobra.
All top notch cars