What is the name/manufacture of the sin bearing?

[epapp]

Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

1) It requires just as much work to implement a direct oil feed as it does to just replace the bearing with a ceramic one. Actually, probably more.

2) It doesn't help out the broke graduate students (myself) doing all kinds of DIYs to their cars. I don't know if my bearing is bad. Why should I pull the transmission off and inspect it if I don't have to AND there is an easy solution other than pulling it off?

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

To the point of that extremely long thread about trying to recreate the bearing failure, in my opinion, is completely funk. The parts that I read through showed a bearing being spun by a lathe. OK thats a start, and the grease will be spun out of the balls. There is no load on the bearing though. Without a load, the balls will not deform, the grease will not act as it would inside of the engine, and the whole test shows nothing other than how long an unloaded ball bearing can spin for.

In fact, an unloaded ball bearing with grease packed into it is doing more harm than good. If you pick up a few books of how grease works on the molecular level with respect to the pressures during properly loaded roller bearing operation, there are all kinds of pressure regions and hydro-elastic properties that create thin and thick layers of grease(depending on where the ball is at in its rotation with respect to the load). An unloaded bearing has completely different properties and because the grease is allowed to 'build up' more because of the lack of a load, there is more separation between the ball and the outer/inner race. Since grease works on the basis that it will be compressed, spinning a bearing with no load proves nothing.

To the point of the IMS guardian, I originally thought it was my best bet for some piece of mind. But then I realized it gave me very little piece of mine, because:

1) IF the guardian does alert the driver, it doesn't mean anything specifically related to the IMSB. If I were driving and the guardian LED lit up, the first question I would ask myself: "is this from my bearing or is something else wrong?" Yes, if there is enough metal to short the two electrodes, something is probably wrong, but it doesn't mean my IMS is bad.

2) With the guardian, there is no guarantee it will even alert you of a bearing failure. Buying it wouldn't give me any piece of mind, because I would still be wondering "what exactly is happening to my bearing?"...the guardian doesn't answer that. What if my bearing is somehow wearing the outer row of roller balls and throwing metal debris to the outer seal, instead of the inner seal? There's also no guarantee the metal will end up in the oil.

What is so easy to implement, and what I will do in my 'spare' time while doing my thesis on a completely unrelated topic, is put together an extremely accurate way to diagnose the health of the IMSB without even pulling out the oil drain plug. Without giving anything away now, my PI even already told me he has the 'instruments' I need to start solving this problem.

Using this system I will ultimately come up with, you will instantly know the health of your bearing as soon as it is powered on. No guessing/waiting for metal to accumulate.

[sb01box]

[QUOTE=epapp;367111]Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.


automobile application may be different from high speed servo, but I was informed that the "grease" portion was natural or paraffin and is added to hold the oil. that oil is the lubricant.

[Jake Raby]

Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

Or its potentially Debris Oil Feeding the component, catalyzing the chances of failures.

Who knows, tons of mouse traps out there now. I remember when there were none and we had to create the first one.

Fishing lures catch more fisherman than fish.

[Bigsmoothlee]

Originally Posted by epapp

Thanks, I just saw that whole thread. Thats a great idea/solution, with the EXCEPTION of a few things.

1) It requires just as much work to implement a direct oil feed as it does to just replace the bearing with a ceramic one. Actually, probably more.

2) It doesn't help out the broke graduate students (myself) doing all kinds of DIYs to their cars. I don't know if my bearing is bad. Why should I pull the transmission off and inspect it if I don't have to AND there is an easy solution other than pulling it off?

3) most importantly: oil is not the same a grease. Grease that is packed into roller bearings is specific to the type of ball bearing deformation when each ball is loaded independently. Oil will keep the bearing cool and lubricated, but it is not protecting the ball bearings like grease will. Therefore, an oil feed system is potentially just prolonging the problem and not solving it.

To the point of that extremely long thread about trying to recreate the bearing failure, in my opinion, is completely funk. The parts that I read through showed a bearing being spun by a lathe. OK thats a start, and the grease will be spun out of the balls. There is no load on the bearing though. Without a load, the balls will not deform, the grease will not act as it would inside of the engine, and the whole test shows nothing other than how long an unloaded ball bearing can spin for.

In fact, an unloaded ball bearing with grease packed into it is doing more harm than good. If you pick up a few books of how grease works on the molecular level with respect to the pressures during properly loaded roller bearing operation, there are all kinds of pressure regions and hydro-elastic properties that create thin and thick layers of grease(depending on where the ball is at in its rotation with respect to the load). An unloaded bearing has completely different properties and because the grease is allowed to 'build up' more because of the lack of a load, there is more separation between the ball and the outer/inner race. Since grease works on the basis that it will be compressed, spinning a bearing with no load proves nothing.

To the point of the IMS guardian, I originally thought it was my best bet for some piece of mind. But then I realized it gave me very little piece of mine, because:

1) IF the guardian does alert the driver, it doesn't mean anything specifically related to the IMSB. If I were driving and the guardian LED lit up, the first question I would ask myself: "is this from my bearing or is something else wrong?" Yes, if there is enough metal to short the two electrodes, something is probably wrong, but it doesn't mean my IMS is bad.

2) With the guardian, there is no guarantee it will even alert you of a bearing failure. Buying it wouldn't give me any piece of mind, because I would still be wondering "what exactly is happening to my bearing?"...the guardian doesn't answer that. What if my bearing is somehow wearing the outer row of roller balls and throwing metal debris to the outer seal, instead of the inner seal? There's also no guarantee the metal will end up in the oil.

What is so easy to implement, and what I will do in my 'spare' time while doing my thesis on a completely unrelated topic, is put together an extremely accurate way to diagnose the health of the IMSB without even pulling out the oil drain plug. Without giving anything away now, my PI even already told me he has the 'instruments' I need to start solving this problem.

Using this system I will ultimately come up with, you will instantly know the health of your bearing as soon as it is powered on. No guessing/waiting for metal to accumulate.

Sorry, there is no way to send a text message to the bearing to ask if its doing well or not.

You can monitor camshaft deviation at intervals like 5000 miles
You can take your oil filter apart and check for metal particles
You can take your oil pan off at oil changes as well.

Broke and lazy dont work together. I remember not being able to afford many repairs or modifications in college, and being able to still get the result I wanted by rolling my sleeves up and getting the job done myself.

Cheap? Porsche sells an original IMS bearing for about $120, although I wouldnt recommend it.

Being too lazy to pull the transmission down? Tough s**t! If you dont want to pay someone $500 to paint your hallway, go to home depot, buy the paint, and do it yourself. No sympathy here.

Its not that bad to pull the transmission down anyway

[epapp]

Originally Posted by Bigsmoothlee

Sorry, there is no way to send a text message to the bearing to ask if its doing well or not.

You can monitor camshaft deviation at intervals like 5000 miles
You can take your oil filter apart and check for metal particles
You can take your oil pan off at oil changes as well.

Broke and lazy dont work together. I remember not being able to afford many repairs or modifications in college, and being able to still get the result I wanted by rolling my sleeves up and getting the job done myself.

Cheap? Porsche sells an original IMS bearing for about $120, although I wouldnt recommend it.

Being too lazy to pull the transmission down? Tough s**t! If you dont want to pay someone $500 to paint your hallway, go to home depot, buy the paint, and do it yourself. No sympathy here.

Its not that bad to pull the transmission down anyway

Of course I do all my own work, short of mounting the tires to the rims. Although my friend claims he mounts tires with a sledge hammer and lots of pushing. Somehow it doesn't sound like thats the right thing to do with Porsche rims.

I'm not broke (but I would always do my own work before paying someone else to do it), and I have no reason to pull the transmission until next summer to put in my new clutch. If I needed to (or had signs of RMS/IMS failure) I would pull it in a heartbeat.

That being said, wouldn't an IMS bearing health solution be easy and nice if you didn't need to remove anything for it to work??

[Bigsmoothlee]

I guess, but theres no other way to monitor the health of that bearing...

Maybe theres a certain frequency when the bearing is failing that could be measured around the oil pump drive?

[Jake Raby]

If the guy has a good idea and wants to work hard to develop it and bring it to market, then more power to him. He needs to realize that the idea and making it work are really the easiest 25% of the process, the rest is what doesn't come easy.

That said the majority of my life my age worked against me in the industry. I was "fixing" mistakes made by those who were working on engines before I was born when I was a teenager. I started this company when I was 13 (literally) and ran it through the time I was in the USMC, most of the time out of my barracks room and selling parts and engines at the Pomona Swap Meet. I came home at age 22 and went full time, having to fight the old codgers that had to be proven wrong to get any respect from them.

Still today I fight that and I promised to never be one of those old bastards that stopped learning, didn't care and only thought that my time on this planet made me better or smarter than the next guy.

Anyone who decides to play this game better have strength and endurance, and be able to work while sleep depraved. They had better not care about having nights, weekends and holidays off and they better be willing to spend every single dime they have in savings and max out every credit card they own to chase the dream. If they don't, then they'd best just collect their paycheck from someone else and not sign it themselves.

[Jager]

There are a couple methods of detecting failing bearing assemblies that were developed as preventative maintenance practice for factory and shop machines. I am anxious to learn what epapp has to offer the automotive world so I can go buy that 997 I’ve been keeping an eye on!

http://www.mobiusinstitute.com/articles.aspx?id=2088

Using accelerometers or using a broadband pickup and heterodyning for our ears to hear are interesting thoughts but I think would be a challenge on internal combustible engines (with all the other noises and moving parts) but if one could be installed on the IMS bearing cover it might work… OK, I’m off to the lab to develop.

[Nine8Six]

Originally Posted by Jager

There are a couple methods of detecting failing bearing assemblies that were developed as preventative maintenance practice for factory and shop machines. I am anxious to learn what epapp has to offer the automotive world so I can go buy that 997 I’ve been keeping an eye on!

Detecting rolling element bearing faults with vibration analysis

Using accelerometers or using a broadband pickup and heterodyning for our ears to hear are interesting thoughts but I think would be a challenge on internal combustible engines (with all the other noises and moving parts) but if one could be installed on the IMS bearing cover it might work… OK, I’m off to the lab to develop.

Works on machinery that are heavy, grounded and has a constant rpm. Performing vibration's wave spectrum "analysis" in a dynamic environment (fluctuating rpm being one alone) requires heavily formulated algorithm. Not to mention that the system would need to go through a serious adaptation/learning cycle each time it is boot-up. Your Porsche would cost $150,000 (min) more if it had a such smart system attached to it.

Still cheaper to buy a second hand engine imo