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Old 09-18-2013, 08:38 AM   #1
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Autoweek Words on IMS

Dutch Mandel just posted an interesting commentary on the Autoweek Daily Drive page:

Porsche class action suit, Autoweek column - Autoweek

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Old 09-18-2013, 10:31 AM   #2
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Thanks for the heads up, Riverside. My 04 Boxter S fell victim at 10-years, 42-days and 52,000 miles. I'll use this in affecting my $7,000 worth of revenge via social media.

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Old 09-18-2013, 10:39 AM   #3
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TO HELP OTHERS OUT incase its still clugee:

IMS problem
Porsche IMS Bearing Failure Explained - YouTube

The IMS Solution
The IMS Solution - YouTube

The LN Engineering IMS Retrofit Kit for MY97-05 Porsche Boxster and 911 Models
IMS Retrofit | The LN Engineering IMS Retrofit Kit for MY97-05 Porsche Boxster and 911 Models

The Porsche Boxster 986 Enthusiast Guide: Intermediate Shaft (IMS) Bearing Info and Fixes
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Old 09-18-2013, 11:31 AM   #4
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Also worth considering, IMO, is the DOF (direct oil feed) for Porsche IMS bearings developed by TuneRS Motorsports and also sold, with various replacement bearings, by pedrosgarage:

TechnoFix DOF


TuneRS Motorsports | PORSCHE PERFORMANCE, PARTS, REPAIR, RESTORATION AND MOTORSPORTS FACILITY

Makes perfect sense to me and, for the later, larger single-row IMS bearing equipeed 987's, a great way to get lubrication to a bearing that cannot be replaced without tearing down the engine. The price ($799.99 plus shipping) seems quite fair, as does the price and the choices available for upgraded replacement bearings for the earlier engines.

Although I have decided to wait until I need to replace the clutch on my dual-row bearing engine, this is the route I plan to take.

Brad

P.S. Yes I know, some will complain that there has not been extensive testing over a number of years and a huge number of miles to 'prove' the efficacy of this system. Frankly, I believe that this is unrealistic as:

1. There are a great many cars (in fact the vast majority) with their original IMS bearings and no failures. Not surprisingly, it took Porsche a number of years themselves to discover the problem with their sealed single-row bearings. How many yeears and how many miles of testing would be required in order to satisfy the doubters?
2. Direct oil feed to bearings is hardly new technology - in fact it is the norm. Where Porsche failed was in using a 'sealed' bearing containing grease in a high heat, relatively high load situation. From various tear-downs, it seems that if (or according to some, when) the seal fails, in some cases the oil washes out the grease leaving only a small amount of rancid oil/grease insufficient to lubricate the bearing. In other cases, it seems that if enough splash oil is able to get through the failed seal, the bearing can last indefinitely. Many who have removed their original bearings have found that while the seal had failed, there seemed to be a fair amount of oil in the bearing and no signs of play, scoring or other significant wear.
3. The upshot of this is that with adequate lubrication (and pressure feed is clearly better than splash in various driving conditions), there is no reason to believe that the bearing should not last as long (or longer) than any other engine component. Put in a new bearing (the OEM SKF has proven adequate in the majority of cars, even without pressure lubrication), or an upgraded ceramic (again, no real side by side testing, but ceramic is clearly stronger than steel), install direct oil feed and whatever problems your car develops, logic and experience dictate that the IMS bearing should not be one of them.

Last edited by southernstar; 09-18-2013 at 12:12 PM. Reason: added PS to address concerns about 'testing'
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:12 PM   #5
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Why does the author claim that it concerns US produced Porsches only? Itīs the same flawed IMS design for the Stuttgart produced vehicles.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southernstar View Post
Also worth considering, IMO, is the DOF (direct oil feed) for Porsche IMS bearings developed by TuneRS Motorsports and also sold, with various replacement bearings, by pedrosgarage:

TechnoFix DOF


TuneRS Motorsports | PORSCHE PERFORMANCE, PARTS, REPAIR, RESTORATION AND MOTORSPORTS FACILITY

Makes perfect sense to me and, for the later, larger single-row IMS bearing equipeed 987's, a great way to get lubrication to a bearing that cannot be replaced without tearing down the engine. The price ($799.99 plus shipping) seems quite fair, as does the price and the choices available for upgraded replacement bearings for the earlier engines.

Although I have decided to wait until I need to replace the clutch on my dual-row bearing engine, this is the route I plan to take.

Brad

P.S. Yes I know, some will complain that there has not been extensive testing over a number of years and a huge number of miles to 'prove' the efficacy of this system. Frankly, I believe that this is unrealistic as:
...
Thanks for posting that, this guy knows what he's talking about, a must see.

Porsche's IMS bearing explained Intelligently


Last edited by soucorp; 09-18-2013 at 12:23 PM.
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:19 PM   #7
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Haz, there were no US produced Porsche 986/987/996 models. The lawsuit only applies to cars SOLD in the USA, since that is where the litigation was brought and is being settled. Of course, the IMS bearing problem is one that exists with these models no matter where they were sold, but the rest of the world are left out for this reason. Understand that its not just other continents - it also does not apply to cars originally sold elsewhere in North America - eg. Canada or Mexico.

Brad
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Old 09-18-2013, 12:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southernstar View Post
Haz, there were no US produced Porsche 986/987/996 models. The lawsuit only applies to cars SOLD in the USA, since that is where the litigation was brought and is being settled. Of course, the IMS bearing problem is one that exists with these models no matter where they were sold, but the rest of the world are left out for this reason. Understand that its not just other continents - it also does not apply to cars originally sold elsewhere in North America - eg. Canada or Mexico.

Brad
Really? I was sure Porsche had a production facility some where in America.. So, all Porsche sold around the world are made in Stuttgart? Sorry for OT..

edit* Boxster and Cayman production was outsourced to Valmet Automotive in Finland from 1997 to 2011, and in 2012 production moved to Germany.[53]

Porsche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(53) Porsche

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Old 09-18-2013, 12:34 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Really? I was sure Porsche had a production facility some where in America.. So, all Porsche sold around the world are made in Stuttgart? Sorry for OT..

edit* Boxster and Cayman production was outsourced to Valmet Automotive in Finland from 1997 to 2011, and in 2012 production moved to Germany.[53]

Porsche - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(53) Porsche
Only Headquarters in US, cars are built in Germany, but they are looking to move the plant to China where VW's Audi are being built for 2014

Porsche to Build New U.S. Headquarters in Georgia's Aerotropolis
New Complex Near Atlanta to House Nearly All U.S. Porsche Operations Under One Roof, Including Test Track
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:23 PM   #10
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It seems there are too many theories and anecdotes but no actual scientific study. It's a big toss-up regarding the IMS issue.
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Old 09-18-2013, 01:41 PM   #11
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It seems there are too many theories and anecdotes but no actual scientific study. It's a big toss-up regarding the IMS issue.
theories and anecdotes are unecessary in the first place. Simply swap out the original IMS and your worry comes to a screeching halt.

In the years since the improved bearings have become available, I can't recall a single member on this or any other forum coming back to say that they did the swap and their engine still exploded. Not a single one.

if people put this much time and energy into worrying about the water pump and oil changes, Jake Raby himself has said he'd have two cars sitting in his parking lot awaiting repair.
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Old 09-18-2013, 04:54 PM   #12
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Dumb question?

If your Boxster has already had the LN retro fit completed, can you still benefit from adding the DOF as described by Pedro? Or is that "belt and suspenders" approach that is not necessary? Do ceramic ball bearings as in the LN bearing benefit from this direct oil injection?
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Old 09-18-2013, 07:41 PM   #13
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If your Boxster has already had the LN retro fit completed, can you still benefit from adding the DOF as described by Pedro? Or is that "belt and suspenders" approach that is not necessary? Do ceramic ball bearings as in the LN bearing benefit from this direct oil injection?
LN bearings require that it be at least inspected after 50k miles if i'm not mistaken. So I would say yes belt and suspenders. But something to consider at your next clutch change. This is good news for anyone driving 05 1/2 thru 08 Boxster /Carrera.

There are thousands of cars running ceramic. DOF sounds good to me. And there is also the solution. There are options out there.
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Old 09-19-2013, 08:10 AM   #14
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Actually ...

... Porsche built only 10% of the Boxsters in Germany (Stuttgart). the other 90% were built in Finland in the city of Uusikaupunki. 100% of the 996s are built in Stuttgart.
You can tell where your car was built by looking at your VIN.
If the 11th character is an S it was built in Stuttgart.
If the 11th character is a U, it was built in Uusikaupunki.

Happy Boxstering,
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Old 09-19-2013, 10:13 AM   #15
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LN bearings require that it be at least inspected after 50k miles if i'm not mistaken.
Not the case for their double row bearings. And since the single row bearing is/has being phased out by LNE in favor of their no bearing unit, the single row unit is not a going forward issue for new installs.

My guess is that you might want to do the DOF modification if you have an LNE single row bearing. Seems to me that it would extend the life beyond 50K miles. But LNE or Flat6 should probably be consulted first.

At the end of the day the whole IMS debacle seems to be one of simple oil starvation, the DOF attacks the root cause cause of this miscalcualtion by Porsche rather than fortifying the bearing itself to better withstand the oil starvation. Or do the no bearing upgrade. You have many options, anyone staying up at night over this simply needs to do any of these clever fixes and quit worrying.
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:08 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppbon View Post
... Porsche built only 10% of the Boxsters in Germany (Stuttgart). the other 90% were built in Finland in the city of Uusikaupunki. 100% of the 996s are built in Stuttgart.
You can tell where your car was built by looking at your VIN.
If the 11th character is an S it was built in Stuttgart.
If the 11th character is a U, it was built in Uusikaupunki.

Happy Boxstering,
Pedro
Yup, saw the stats on the wikipage for the Boxster. Mine is a German import, so Stuttgart.
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:48 AM   #17
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I'd like to give Dutch Mandel and AutoWeek some big time kudo's for having the balls to call out Porsche on this issue.

Where are the editorials from the Porsche insiders like PCA's Panorama? Or Excellence? ......Hello? Buhler?
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Old 09-19-2013, 11:54 AM   #18
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I'd like to give Dutch Mandel and AutoWeek some big time kudo's for having the balls to call out Porsche on this issue.

Where are the editorials from the Porsche insiders like PCA's Panorama? Or Excellence? ......Hello? Buhler?
If he was trying to help the public and existing owners he should've made mention of fixes that have been available for the IMS issue for some time now.

If this is the first you're hearing of this issue you probably come away thinking that the IMS is a terminal disease.

Excellence probably should have blasted Porsche but at least they have covered the work by Jake Raby at Flat6, LNE and others extensively. And that's far more useful to the next owner or an existing one since its points toward the direction of preventing a huge expense.

it almost seem to me like the author intentionally left out the bearing upgrade options or the direct oil feed to heighten the drama.
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Old 09-20-2013, 08:45 AM   #19
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Does anyone know how many Boxster they sold b/t 1996 and 2008? over 500,000 units?
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Old 09-20-2013, 08:54 AM   #20
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"having the balls to call out Porsche" is not surprising, bc Porsche is just like any other sport car, there's really nothing really outstanding when compared to other makers.

Porsche engine is not rocket but I believe they make things more complex than it should be, and thats where Porsched get ridiculed.

Has Porsche been making good engines? probably not because they completely redesign the engine w/o the IMS, it's direct cam drive now, much like Subaru Boxer H6. Ibelieve they completely change their mentality regarding placing the IMS b/t the crank and cam or not.

Has Porsche been making good car? Definitely yes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by thstone View Post
I'd like to give Dutch Mandel and AutoWeek some big time kudo's for having the balls to call out Porsche on this issue.

Where are the editorials from the Porsche insiders like PCA's Panorama? Or Excellence? ......Hello? Buhler?


Last edited by Trey T; 09-20-2013 at 08:57 AM.
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