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Old 07-31-2013, 09:53 AM   #1
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FRS DI issue - grass is not greener

Grass is not greener on the other side!

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38397&page=10
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42849
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:04 AM   #2
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Thanks for that ekam - it makes clear that even Toyota/Subaru have problems with relatively minor parts of their 'performance' engines that can lead to total engine failure at relatively low mileage. As you say, the grass is not always greener....

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Old 07-31-2013, 11:08 AM   #3
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The 9a1 is not immune, for sure. Here is the inside of a 4,465 mile engine that I have my hands in now. These things were noted when we I disassembled the engine to take it from 3.4 to 4.2 liters for a 2012 Cayman R. It had no symptoms, or known issues and had never even had its first oil service. It did make lousy power on the dyno and upon teardown I found out why.

First is the worn cylinders (all of them looked like this)


Then come the broken piston rings


Then the worn lifters


Then the root of the issue, a missing O ring from the anti-aeration side of the main oil pump which leads to the de-aeration swirl pots


The oil was heavily aerated and lost film strength creating these issues. The car was bought new by the owner who sent it to me and was untouched from the factory. Only MY hands have been inside it. Missing parts from the factory? Yep and if this one had them, it can happen again.

As we get evolve the 9a1 engines we have also found valve guide wear and other issues. We already have 3 years of development under our belts with the 9a1 DFI engines and the deficiencies are becoming more clear with each one. Others won't see these issues for 5-6 more years, more than likely.
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:39 AM   #4
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i'd always be wary of buying a car or engine the first year it's out. give the engineers a couple of years to work out the issues and guinea pig on the early adopters.

my concern is when the engineers don't fix the issues and let them continue for many years. of course ims and gt2/3 cooling, but I've my concerns with the dfi engines as well.
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Old 07-31-2013, 11:43 AM   #5
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Toyota will have that problem solved so fast nobody can do to Toyota's what Jake is doing to Porsche's! It reminds me of the book title- ENGINEER TO WIN!
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:15 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Jake Raby View Post
The 9a1 is not immune, for sure. Here is the inside of a 4,465 mile engine that I have my hands in now. These things were noted when we I disassembled the engine to take it from 3.4 to 4.2 liters for a 2012 Cayman R. It had no symptoms, or known issues and had never even had its first oil service. It did make lousy power on the dyno and upon teardown I found out why.

First is the worn cylinders (all of them looked like this)


Then come the broken piston rings


Then the worn lifters


Then the root of the issue, a missing O ring from the anti-aeration side of the main oil pump which leads to the de-aeration swirl pots


The oil was heavily aerated and lost film strength creating these issues. The car was bought new by the owner who sent it to me and was untouched from the factory. Only MY hands have been inside it. Missing parts from the factory? Yep and if this one had them, it can happen again.

As we get evolve the 9a1 engines we have also found valve guide wear and other issues. We already have 3 years of development under our belts with the 9a1 DFI engines and the deficiencies are becoming more clear with each one. Others won't see these issues for 5-6 more years, more than likely.
Every time I read one of Jake's post, I want to sell my car.
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:34 PM   #7
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Every time I read one of Jake's post, I want to sell my car.

I'm just glad he's not my MD.
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:40 AM   #8
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Why, your MD only see's sick people, Raby only sees sick Porsches......
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:51 AM   #9
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And what about the dirty valves on all DFI engines that manufacturers blame on the quality of gas we put in our cars in North America?

Last edited by ekam; 08-01-2013 at 04:55 AM.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:39 AM   #10
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Why, your MD only see's sick people, Raby only sees sick Porsches......
Yeah, but when I go in for a physical I don't want to hear the 247 ways my body could catastrophically fail.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:51 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Jake Raby View Post
The 9a1 is not immune, for sure. Here is the inside of a 4,465 mile engine that I have my hands in now. These things were noted when we I disassembled the engine to take it from 3.4 to 4.2 liters for a 2012 Cayman R. It had no symptoms, or known issues and had never even had its first oil service. It did make lousy power on the dyno and upon teardown I found out why.

First is the worn cylinders (all of them looked like this)


Then come the broken piston rings


Then the worn lifters


Then the root of the issue, a missing O ring from the anti-aeration side of the main oil pump which leads to the de-aeration swirl pots


The oil was heavily aerated and lost film strength creating these issues. The car was bought new by the owner who sent it to me and was untouched from the factory. Only MY hands have been inside it. Missing parts from the factory? Yep and if this one had them, it can happen again.

As we get evolve the 9a1 engines we have also found valve guide wear and other issues. We already have 3 years of development under our belts with the 9a1 DFI engines and the deficiencies are becoming more clear with each one. Others won't see these issues for 5-6 more years, more than likely.
Jake, are you seeing the new "thermal management system" Porsche is using on these cars playing a role in premature wear?
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:03 AM   #12
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The thermal management system is only used on the latest of engines that we have not seen just yet. I have a 2014 GT3 on the way in this November for a big bore engine and we'll know more about it then as we attempt to stretch it out to 4.5 liters. Nothing wrong with it, in fact its not even being delivered to the customer until October and it'll have a couple thousand miles on it when I jump inside head over heels.

Note that the engine below with all the wear exhibited is so new that the QR code on the pistons is still very clear.

Solving problems is what we do as well as getting inside the latest engines before anyone else would even consider it. When I tore into the Cayman R engine I did not expect to find this wear and certainly did not expect to find missing internal parts that had lead to the wear. My jaw dropped when I found that missing O ring, but then the low power and wear I had seen all started to make sense immediately.

We learn things before we have to know them, and thats how we maintain a 5+ year edge on everyone else. Too many people believe that the 9a1 is the be all, end all solution for these cars only because it lacks an IMS. Many of those people will see the reason why Porsche employed the "layshaft" (IMS) in every flat 6 built prior to the 9a1. At least thats my long term hypothesis on the things that the future holds. The 9a1 is a better platform in most ways, but we have identified its weaknesses and have addressed them already.

We don't carry out "service" and we don't do anything thats "simple", if an engine finds its way here its already outside the scope of other shops, or its here to be made a lot bigger, a lot better and a lot faster, without compromise.
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:09 AM   #13
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Jake, if I am reading you correctly you are suggesting that the IMS is a good idea if properly executed - i.e., with proper bearings/bearing lubrication.

Brad
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by ekam View Post
And what about the dirty valves on all DFI engines that manufacturers blame on the quality of gas we put in our cars in North America?
I just posted this to a member on the Subaru Forester forum as he has a '14 Forester Turbo engine. DFI has been a problem since it was introduced.

BGFuelTest.com The Fast and The Fuel Test The tests/pictures are great to look at. Also, there was a lot of posts regarding DFI on BITOG some time ago.

Regards,
paul...
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:09 AM   #15
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Jake, if I am reading you correctly you are suggesting that the IMS is a good idea if properly executed - i.e., with proper bearings/bearing lubrication.

Brad
Nothing wrong with the design- everything wrong with the factory M96 bearing design.

I have an 88 Carrera with damn near 300K miles on the original engine and I am not alone. Until Porsche went to the ball bearing there have never been issues! The 547 4 Cam Carrera (Fuhrmann) engine utilized a layshaft in the mid 1950s and that also had no issues.

The difference? The Mezger and Fuhrmann engines are supported by PLAIN bearings with pressure fed oil delivery.

Omit the "IMS" and speed up the surface speeds of the drive chains and see what happens. Makes sense? No to me.
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:22 AM   #16
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I noticed the QR codes you mentioned earlier. Where do they go to if you scan them? I tried with the picture but not good enough resolution. For the curious in all of us.
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:25 AM   #17
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I noticed the QR codes you mentioned earlier. Where do they go to if you scan them? I tried with the picture but not good enough resolution. For the curious in all of us.
It says "not found", they are for the factory robots to deliver components to assembly stations. The entire engine is covered in them.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:19 PM   #18
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Toyota will have that problem solved so fast nobody can do to Toyota's what Jake is doing to Porsche's! It reminds me of the book title- ENGINEER TO WIN!
Yeah, checkout the solution for 2006- 2009 IS250:

Hi guys and gals, I am a Lexus Senior Certified tech at a large Lexus dealership. In reading some of the posts here, I see alot of confusion about this subject. You seem to know about carbon build-up, but not the how or why and most important...the fix or prevention.
First, how and why...the misfire is caused when carbon that has built-up on the intake valve flakes off and becomes stuck between the valve and the seat causing loss of compression. This can last from a few seconds to minutes. It does not damage the engine, but can set a Check Engine light if it lasts long enough. The carbon is caused by crankcase blow-by...oil getting in the intake system. With a Direct Injection engine there is no fuel flow over the valve to clean it. The fix is to reduce blow-by...after you clean-up the valves. Lexus has another TSIB out for this. I believe it is L-SB-0068-11. It involes replacing ALL the pistons and rings,also cleaning the valves and replacing the valve stem seals. I personally have done 4 of these. It is most common around 60k miles, but have seen it as low as 29k. It is fully covered under 6/70 powertrain warranty. Now about prevention....I don't know of any. Why do some cars do it at 30k and others have 100k w/o a problem??? Synthetic oil may help, but not enough data to be sure. Good, clean oil can't hurt. The 350 and V-8 models do not have this problem. If you have any questions I will try to answer them as best I can.
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:34 PM   #19
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Yeah, checkout the solution for 2006- 2009 IS250:

Hi guys and gals, I am a Lexus Senior Certified tech at a large Lexus dealership. In reading some of the posts here, I see alot of confusion about this subject. You seem to know about carbon build-up, but not the how or why and most important...the fix or prevention.
First, how and why...the misfire is caused when carbon that has built-up on the intake valve flakes off and becomes stuck between the valve and the seat causing loss of compression. This can last from a few seconds to minutes. It does not damage the engine, but can set a Check Engine light if it lasts long enough. The carbon is caused by crankcase blow-by...oil getting in the intake system. With a Direct Injection engine there is no fuel flow over the valve to clean it. The fix is to reduce blow-by...after you clean-up the valves. Lexus has another TSIB out for this. I believe it is L-SB-0068-11. It involes replacing ALL the pistons and rings,also cleaning the valves and replacing the valve stem seals. I personally have done 4 of these. It is most common around 60k miles, but have seen it as low as 29k. It is fully covered under 6/70 powertrain warranty. Now about prevention....I don't know of any. Why do some cars do it at 30k and others have 100k w/o a problem??? Synthetic oil may help, but not enough data to be sure. Good, clean oil can't hurt. The 350 and V-8 models do not have this problem. If you have any questions I will try to answer them as best I can.
can you find ONE more example? Just ONE more?
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Old 08-03-2013, 05:24 PM   #20
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It says "not found", they are for the factory robots to deliver components to assembly stations. The entire engine is covered in them.
Interesting, thank you!

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