986 as a future classic

[black_box]

My 2000 Boxster S is now sold (or at least waiting to be be personally delivered, with a deposit paid) and I am heading down south to swap it for my 2008 Boxster S in a couple of days.

While the 987 is in my experience just a better functioning overall car, there's something about the 986 visually, and in it's edgier feeling driving experience, that is special and causing me a premature tinge of regret even as I prepare to take her on a final 1100 mile drive through Appalachia.

While the 987 is certainly handsome, the softer lines of the original are more elegant and likely to be remembered 20 years from now, I think. When I've pushed the 987 before, it feels fast, planted, and completely under control all the time. Speed seems effortless and you don't feel quite as involved as when you're piloting a 986 at 9/10ths with no driver aids save ABS. When you are pushing a 986, you KNOW it! Newer Porsches I've driven feel like cyborg speed machines from the future, but they don't rattle your soul (or spine) in quite the same way

While my example has a non VIN matching engine, mods, and probably has too many miles (111k) to ever be a Barrett-Jackson contender, I already feel like I am losing something really unique by letting her go. I am also pretty sure that since you can only have 1 first Porsche, so that there's little chance that this car will make the same memories and emotional connection as "Black Bettie" did.

I got a killer deal on the new car, which is 99.9% perfect and still under warranty, so it was definitely a case of practical expediency trumping emotion in upgrading to the new model.

What do you guys think? Is the 986 a future classic, is it more "special" than its more capable successor cars?




Here's Bettie with a relative:

[black_box]

for comparison, my 987:

[ChrisZang]

I don't think so, this car was mass produced and there are too many around

[cfos]

I'll never come around to the fried eggy-web headlights and have yet to find a thread here praise them, but a wiser man than me once wrote:

"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”

[Perfectlap]

There are no more Porsche "classics". Last I checked, there are 1,000 water-cooled Carreras on Autotrader. That's 10 pages, 100 Carreras on each. That's also nuts. The era of near zero interest rates will leave many fossils behind...
Now toss in a pant load of Caymans, three generations of Boxsters, Panameras and Cayennes.
This market is up to its eyeballs in modern era Porsches. Exclusivity? LOL. Ubiquity more like it.

Don't get me wrong, most of the air-cooled Porsches since 1989 would have been in this situation as well. But luckily for them Porsche had yet to master the art of of mating efficient ma$$ production with effective wooing of deep-pocketed buyers. They weren't very good at either. Sometimes I wonder if Porsche had given the 996 round lights and high fenders, so that you could not tell an air-cooled from a water-cooled from the outside, if the 993 and 964's would be remarkable to most Porsche enthusiasts.

So its a bit ironic that way. The Boxster, Cayman, 996/997/991, Pana will never be a classic because Porsche for the first time figured out how to give the public what they wanted and not just a few thousand willing buyers every year. If only 2,000 Boxsters were sold per year and they stopped making them, attrition would have eventually made them classics. But water-cooled Boxsters and Carreras will continue to be made as long at there are wealthy people to buy them, and VW have plans to flood the used pipeline with even more inventory via new models.

The only cars made in the mass production era that could becom valueable are the manual shift Mezger Carreras. The RS cars in particular. Even the regular GT3's were mass produced to a certain degree. A 997 4.0 RS was produced in such low numbers that it might be the only water-cooled era Porsche (aside from the CGT) that could go up in value...so as long the owner never drives it. Which begs the question why buy it in the first place. All other Porsches are wholly disposable, virtually none will recoup their original sitcker prices. The market for used, out of warranty, expensive to maintain and repair German sports cars is not remotely large enough to absorb a decade plus of mass production.

[thstone]

Remember that 20 years ago, you couldn't give away an early 911 - they were worthless junk.

986's will be collectable in about 20 years. At that time, a vast majority of those built will have been junked for financial reasons (too expensive to repair) and in the interim time the Porsche World will come to admire the first water cooled car for the design language that it defined for the 996, 997, 981, 991, and eventual 992, 994, and 998 models still to come. The first model in a new series is ALWAYS collectable (eventually).

[Boxster_S_girl]

Totally agree with Perfectlap.

I love the 986/987 Boxsters, but the post '97-ish watercooled cars will never retain their value the way earlier cars did (save for anything Mezger-powered) because of the volume of units Porsche pushed.

The air-cooled, up-to-993 values have shot through the roof! I'm kicking myself for not buying up a near-perfect SC I test drove 10 years ago for $11,000! They're up to $20,000 now.

I do think right now is the time to buy a 996 GT3, though. I think it's a ton of car for current values!

[Perfectlap]

Originally Posted by Boxster_S_girl

The air-cooled, up-to-993 values have shot through the roof! I'm kicking myself for not buying up a near-perfect SC I test drove 10 years ago for $11,000! They're up to $20,000 now.

I think people who don't plan on selling short term worry too much about what their Porsche will be worth in the future. Especially all of water-cooled folks who buy their car only to freak out every time the odometer eats up $5K in resale. Most 993/964's despite a hot market have not recouped their original prices. But still they treat it like the Ferrari in Ferris Beuller's Day Off, a car that can never see the slightest hint of rain for fear of wrecking it and the longest drive is to go out for ice cream cones. That's what they bought a Porsche for? A sports car is something you're supposed to drive, so that gas mileage is terrible and tires never last. A sports car that sits like a Tiffany lamp 90% of the time isn't really a sports car anymore its more like a baseball card with wheels.
But that's the great thing about the Boxster/996/997 you MUST drive the wheels off it, you MUST enjoy it because tomorrow you'll be bartering it for a bar-b-q grill or hot tub.

[RandallNeighbour]

I vow to never kick myself for "giving away" my first year, early production model 986 for someone to gut and turn into a track vehicle in a couple of years when I say goodbye to what the previous owner of this forum called "the black hole for dead presidents."

Even when I am an old man at a Mecum Auto Auction and I see a pristine 1997 like mine for sale for $80,000. I will smile and say, "I would have paid that much through the years just to keep the crappy suspension bushings from wearing out every 18 months!"

[Fintro11]

986's will be as collectable as a 944 .....

[black_falcon]

Originally Posted by Fintro11

986's will be as collectable as a 944 .....

And the sad reality is, unless you own a nice S2 or Turbo.. you can't give away a 944 right now.

In 50 years, an original, low mileage 986 could very well be collectable. Sure. Never in the sense of a Ferrari 246 Dino or Series 1 Jaguar E-Type.. but as the number survivor cars dwindles, and the demand outweighs the supply (as we're witnessed in the air-cooled 911 market right now), prices will go up.

[Steve Tinker]

Originally Posted by Fintro11

986's will be as collectable as a 944 .....

Sorry but I disagree - probably worth less, as the 986/996 build quality are nowhere as good as a 944......

[pothole]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

Sorry but I disagree - probably worth less, as the 986/996 build quality are nowhere as good as a 944......

Not sure about that (agree re build quality). What I mean is that the Box has the advantage of the flat six and generally being superficially prettier and more desirable.

Personally, I think the only thing preventing the Box from already being a classic is production numbers. They built loads of them.

Imagine the 986 was a low volume model they only built a few thousand of and that no other Boxsters followed. I reckon they'd already be worth an absolute bomb. But they built tonnes and most people want new new new. And there are lots of newer Boxsters around!

[southernstar]

Anyone expecting Boxster values to go the way of Speedsters, or Convertible D's, or 356 A's or even early 911's should think again - as has already been pointed out, they were produced in too great a volume. However, IMO there is reason to believe that values for excellent examples of the 986 have virtually bottomed and that they will start to appreciate. Why?

1. The 986 Boxster was a seminal design for Porsche, not only because it saved the company, but because it caused huge excitement in the motoring world. For as many as they sold (new highs for Porsche), there were many more who lusted after one but could not afford them. For many young persons, it became the expensive, but not ridiculously expensive 'dream car'; the one they could imagine one day owning; the one displayed in posters on their bedroom walls. Those persons (and those who wanted one, but due to family obligations could not then afford one) still have these memories. Much like the original Mustang, which was produced in much greater numbers, that 'desireability' will ensure solid interest and demand in the years to come. Much like early Mustangs, there is very good reason to believe that in time, in spite of the numbers produced, prices will rise substantially.

2. Its design, harkening back to the 550 Spyder, made a direct connection with Porshce's roots. The 944 - an admittedly nice upgrade on the joint Porsche/VW 924, did not do the same.

3. The 986 was not only pretty, but it was a unique design: no one could confuse it for anything else. Each subsequent version of the Boxster has become more and more of a generic, mid-engined sports car design.

4. Also unlike the 944 (and 928), the 986 was the first of a model-line for Porsche that, like the 911, has not only continued, but will likely continue into the forseeable future. Consequently (and as some mid-20's friend of my son recently said), it is the ORIGINAl Boxster!

5. The 986, with its incredible mid-engined balance, is still an absolute joy to drive. The weight distribution, Brembo calipers and vented discs all ensure braking that is, especially with upgraded tires, still superior to virtually any new front-engined car. The steering is delightfully direct and provides incredible feedback - frankly, superior connection to the road than the electric power steering in most new cars, including the 981 Boxster.

6. Interest in the 986 will continue to be generated by the new 986 spec series racing.

7. The very low prices at present for the 986 ensure that the supply of good examples is rapidly diminishing - many can afford to buy one, but few can afford to maintain them. In essence, while the supply is rapidly depleted, for all of the reasons stated above, we can expect demand to remain relatively high.

8. The first 986 Boxsters (assembled in 1996) are already 17 years old and within 3 years they will be eligible for 'vintage' plates in many jurisdictions.

In sum, while the 944 was merely a footnote in the history of Porsche, the 986 was a seminal design that created huge excitement at the time of its introduction. It was the original model of a car that continues not only to be produced, but to generate excitement in the motoring press. While there are some mechanical issues, there are absolutely ZERO vices in its handling, braking, steering and engine note. It is and will remain a joy to drive and to look at. While it will likely never attain 'classic' status because of the numbers that were produced, there is every reason to believe that, like the original Mustang, it will becaome a collectible car with appreciating value.

Brad

[Meat Head]

Originally Posted by Steve Tinker

Sorry but I disagree - probably worth less, as the 986/996 build quality are nowhere as good as a 944......

Can't say that I agree with that??? I owned a 944 and so did my brother. They were fun cars but electrical nightmares! The 944 has very dated lines that were meant to be modern (at the time) as where the 986 is much more timeless and were purposely designed to have hints of Porsches from the past.

In my opinion, the Box is a much more refined car. Besides, a convertible will almost always be more desirable as a classic than a hard top.

Even a nice clean older Miata will hold it's value to a point (now thats a mass produced car). Any clean, well maintained sporty convertible will have followers that will pay extra for a nice representation. I'm not saying that the 986 is going to be worth a million dollars but as time goes by, nice clean low mileage representations will be hard to find. I think they have hit rock bottom prices at this point.

[Perfectlap]

^ I agree on the 944 being dated. At the time it was being sold I much prefferred the 944 design over the Carrera. The 944 and the 928 had a sleek forward-looking designs. In my book there was nothing else on the road that captured that flair. But the funny thing is even then people were denigrating anything that wasn't a 911. One guy at my school had a 944 and the haters would say "the poor man's Porsche". I didn't get it, to me the Carrera looked like a VW Bug. Why does everyone have such an infatuation for a car that reminds me of Herbie the Love Bug? So when the 996 came around with a much more aggresive and futuristic design I was one of the few who welcomed it.

The 986 is now a 20 year old design. That's kind of crazy when you think about it. When I first mounted my 997 Turbo replica wheels and added the PORSCHE side decals my neighbohr came out and asked me if I had traded in my old car for the new model! He took a closer look and said "oh ha ha... you tricked me!". That sort of impression would have never happened with a car whose design does not stand the test of time.

p.s.
The level of Boxster attrition that will be needed for the values to ever come up so that a 986 or 987 recoups (inflation adjusted) original value is beyond possible. First, the 996 and Boxster were too expensive (Porsche tax) from the start to hope for price-boosting attrition. You would have to be REALLY in love with the 986 over later versions like the 981 to reject a newer, more powerful, more reliable, less mileage-beaten Boxster. In other words Boxster production would need to shut down now, ideally in 2004 (which probably makes the case for a strong Honda S2000 market some day). In order for something produced in high numbers to be a hit, what comes after must be viewed as subtantially inferior. Quiet the contrary, the 981 is proving to be a huge hit in the sports car world, it has the looks and the performance and they will sell a metric ton of them before we are into the 6th generation. And the other issue is that at the $10-$20K mark, the enthusiast pool that look after Boxsters and 996/997 Carreras will be perhaps the largest one Porsche has ever had. It won't be that hard to find a well maintained Boxster or water-cooled Carrera, most will not survive but those that do will be large enough to make finding one a simple matter of logging onto Autotrader and Ebay and voila you've found a high mileage but well kept car. One can only imagine how many hundreds of thousands of water-cooled Porsches will be rolling around on the streets by then.

However if you bought either a 996/997 or Boxster used, it could stand to reason that you might one day sell it for the used purchase price, but that's really moot because there's no such thing as owning an old Porsche that isn't burning a big hole in your wallet unless you are part of that small % of drivers who can replace their own water pump or shocks. 99% of all driven Boxsters and Carreras (as in not low mileage garage queens) purchased new, will ultimately be net losers or barely break even. Air-cooled engines have very expensive rebuilds that few know hot to do anymore and the water-cooled Pcars have over-priced parts that can easily surpass the purchase price.

[fatmike]

Is the Karmann Ghia considered a classic/collectible?

Do we think the Boxster will viewed similarly over time?




/

[southernstar]

I too loved my 944, but the build quality on it was also questionable: as has been pointed out, various electrical problems, the huge rear windows/hatches becoming unsealed, corrosion problems where the front fenders met the bumpers and eventually in the rocker panels, lousy air-conditioning components, etc. I was not suggesting that the 986 will fetch what it cost new ( $50,000. or more in many cases), only that the prices have virtually bottomed for good examples and that over time they will start to rise.

The fact that new Boxsters remain popular does not mean that the price for an older one will always be depressed: there are a number of older 911's that are now selling for as much or more than new ones, even though their performance and comfort are worse in every respect. Within 7 1/2 years the 996 Boxster will be 25 years old and I fully expect there to be retrospectives on the car in various international automotive publications (just as with the 25 year and now 50 year anniversary of the 911). This should not only operate as a reminder of the incredible impression the car made when released, but it should also generate more interest in the cars as collectibles.

AS indicated, due to the huge inflationary rates of the 70's through 90's, I do not expect the 986 to fetch their original purchase price in the forseeable future. Simply put, while the original purchase price of Porsche 911's in the 60's and 70's seem ridiculously low if we do not adjust for inflation, due to almost historically low inflation rates in the last decade, the same cannot be said of cars purchased in that era. Still, just as the original Mustangs (which were produced in much higher numbers in the first 2 1/2 years of production than the entire model life of the 986) bottomed and started rising by the late 80's, I anticipate that we will start seeing a rise in price for the 986 within the next 7 or 8 years. For those who plan on hanging on to their cars, that is good news. And for those who don't, enjoy your car while you own it, run it into the ground and thereby reduce the supply of good examples, helping those of us who do!

Cheers!

Brad

[southernstar]

Karmann Ghias are certainly 'collectible' - especially the original 'low-light' that was built through 1959. In fact, I believe that one particularly fine example recently sold for about $60,000.00. Heck, even early Beetles have become collectible in spite of the fact that they were sold in incredible numbers and continued in production (in Mexico) through the late 90's.

[Whippy]

No Chance, far too many produced.... They'll be desirable when they're older, collectible or a "classic" - no way....