IMS Bearing Lubrication Upgrade

[southernstar]

Agreed - price will be extremely important to virtually all of us. Having said that, if the cost of this upgrade turns out to be no more (or even less) than an upgraded LN bearing, it strikes me that if you have a dual-row bearing, remove and inspect it, if (as seems likely) it is unharmed, re-install it after removing the inner seal and installing the direct-lubrication kit. If you have a single-row bearing, purchase the Pelican Parts upgraded original bearing, remove the inner seal, install it and the direct-lube. And yes, if you want to keep the car forever, install the LN ceramic bearing and the direct-lubrication.

Brad

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Agreed - price will be extremely important to virtually all of us. Having said that, if the cost of this upgrade turns out to be no more (or even less) than an upgraded LN bearing, it strikes me that if you have a dual-row bearing, remove and inspect it, if (as seems likely) it is unharmed, re-install it after removing the inner seal and installing the direct-lubrication kit.

Bad idea; even LN has always cautioned against re-installing a previously extracted bearing, even theirs.............

[thom4782]

Several points...

It's not clear that direct feed oil lubricates an unsealed IMS bearing better than splash oil alone. It might, but I'd like to see the data that shows this.

One must remove the transmission and flywheel to install the direct oil feed's custom flange. If I'm in there to install the flange, I'd replace any OEM bearing with an LN retrofit. As some have said, direct oil feed may extend the life of a degraded bearing, but why take the risk on how long this might be.

Ceramic bearings will last longer than steel ones. To me the 'better' solution solution might be direct fed oil plus a ceramic IMS bearing. My own belief is that the direct fed oil IMS Solution is the best answer.

Of course, all of this is just opinion at this point. LN has put forward data to benchmark its solutions. Let's see data the others can bring to the debate.

[southernstar]

thom, it strikes me as intuitively obvious that pressure fed lubrication is superior to splash as it will be continuous as the vehicle is being operated, regardless of whether you are cornering, accelerating, decelerating, etc. Obviously, LN also believes so as they have also gone to pressure feed in its new 'solution'. We have come a long way since the Ford Model T, which I believe used splash feed rather than pressurized oil for the main bearings.

As to re-installing a perfectly fine bearing, I have never understood LN's prohibition except as a means of selling additional, rather expensive bearings. As I understand it, the tool from LN is designed to install the bearings without damaging them (if not, what is the use of the tool?). If the bearing is undamaged upon removal and inspection, then what is the problem? Indeed, Excellence magazine editors recommended that in order to extend the original IMS bearing's life expectancy, one should remove the original bearing's inner seal in order to allow it to be splash lubricated. How does one do that without re-installing it?

Certainly I agree (and said so in my second and third posts in the thread) that one can install both the direct feed and a new LN ceramic (or Pelican) bearing if needed, or if one so chooses out of an abundance of precaution.

Brad

[jaykay]

Perhaps bearing outer race deformation cycles with installation and removal begin to encroach on the optimum design clearances within the bearing.

One shock load going in being acceptable and no go after that...

Pressure fed lubricant performs a specific function in the LN ims solution. It is a hydrostatic bearing.

A rolling element bearing may not benefit from an oil jet if it is already immersed in oil. Is the ims location immersed or not?

One has the consider where the oil is taken from to feed an oil jet. Is there another problem created?

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by jaykay

One has the consider where the oil is taken from to feed an oil jet. Is there another problem created?

And there in lies the "rub"....................

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by southernstar

As to re-installing a perfectly fine bearing, I have never understood LN's prohibition except as a means of selling additional, rather expensive bearings. As I understand it, the tool from LN is designed to install the bearings without damaging them (if not, what is the use of the tool?). If the bearing is undamaged upon removal and inspection, then what is the problem? Indeed, Excellence magazine editors recommended that in order to extend the original IMS bearing's life expectancy, one should remove the original bearing's inner seal in order to allow it to be splash lubricated. How does one do that without re-installing it?

The OEM bearing is pressed into the shaft by its stronger outer housing, so there is no load on the inner race, the balls them selves, or the cage assembly during the insertion process. The LN install tool also loads only the outer housing while installing the bearing. When the bearing is extracted from the shaft using the LN tool kit, it is pulled by the center stud, significantly loading the inner race, the balls and the cage assembly, none of which is good for the unit as any deformation of any of these components will ultimately lead to it failing if reinstalled.

What the Excellence article was describing was removing the IMS bear seal that faces the flywheel so that the bearing can get splash lubricated, which can be done using a dental pick while the bearing is still installed, so it never sees any loading during the seal removal process. Removing the other seal on the side facing the inside of the IMS shaft will do nothing to improve the lubrication process, and would in fact result in the shaft remaining full of oil, which would not be a good thing. In fact, the newer IMS Solution system actually inserts a freeze plug into the shaft before the new solid pressure fed bearing is installed for that exact reason.

So it isn't always about selling more bearings, but rather founded in experience and fact.

[southernstar]

Thanks JFP, makes sense. But in removing the outer seal, shouldn't one also be able to inspect the bearing for damage without removing it?

Brad

[JFP in PA]

Originally Posted by southernstar

Thanks JFP, makes sense. But in removing the outer seal, shouldn't one also be able to inspect the bearing for damage without removing it?

Brad

Yes and no; you will be able to see part of the bearing, but that is about it. It is difficult to get a magnification device in there to look at the races and balls for signs of pitting or wear. We have seen bearings that looked good in the car, but after extraction and a good cleaning looked a lot different. So running the existing bearing is a bit of a crap shoot for everyone short of the 2005 and on cars that cannot extract the bearing through the cases. Even then, Raby has developed a way to upgrade those engines as well, but only does it at his shop.