Would you have gotten PDK if they offered it on the 986?

[pothole]

Originally Posted by ChrisZang

I simply have to chime in here. After 6 years of driving, autocrossing, and racing a 986S with a 6 speed manual, my daily driver is now a PDK C4S.
So I am probably one of the few (or maybe the only) posters who have actually extensive seat time in a PDK car. And I can tell you: PDK is the best of both worlds.

Sorry, but PDK is not the best of both worlds. Because it's not a manual at all and it doesn't give you the pleasures and involvement of a manual. It's a completely different technology and experience.

All you do is press a button. If you enjoy the process of controlling the clutch and rev matching the shifts, tough. Because the computer does it all for you.

I've spent plenty of time with PDK Porsches. Have driven probably five or six different models including a week with a PDK Cayman, so more than just 15 minute test drives.

But frankly, you don't need to drive one to know it's not the best of both worlds.

PDK is very good, but it's silly to pretend it's the best of both worlds. It doesn't offer the control and involvement of a manual gearbox. It's that simple.

PDK is something very different from a manual. If you like it, great. But to characterise it as the best of both worlds will give people who haven't tried it completely the wrong idea. It's not a manual gearbox at all.

[thstone]

Originally Posted by pothole

Sorry, but PDK is not the best of both worlds. Because it's not a manual at all and it doesn't give you the pleasures and involvement of a manual. It's a completely different technology and experience.

All you do is press a button. If you enjoy the process of controlling the clutch and rev matching the shifts, tough. Because the computer does it all for you.

I've spent plenty of time with PDK Porsches. Have driven probably five or six different models including a week with a PDK Cayman, so more than just 15 minute test drives.

But frankly, you don't need to drive one to know it's not the best of both worlds.

PDK is very good, but it's silly to pretend it's the best of both worlds. It doesn't offer the control and involvement of a manual gearbox. It's that simple.

PDK is something very different from a manual. If you like it, great. But to characterise it as the best of both worlds will give people who haven't tried it completely the wrong idea. It's not a manual gearbox at all.

+1 Everything Pothole said was right on the money.

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

Sorry, but PDK is not the best of both worlds. Because it's not a manual at all and it doesn't give you the pleasures and involvement of a manual. It's a completely different technology and experience.

All you do is press a button. If you enjoy the process of controlling the clutch and rev matching the shifts, tough. Because the computer does it all for you.

I've spent plenty of time with PDK Porsches. Have driven probably five or six different models including a week with a PDK Cayman, so more than just 15 minute test drives.

But frankly, you don't need to drive one to know it's not the best of both worlds.

PDK is very good, but it's silly to pretend it's the best of both worlds. It doesn't offer the control and involvement of a manual gearbox. It's that simple.

PDK is something very different from a manual. If you like it, great. But to characterise it as the best of both worlds will give people who haven't tried it completely the wrong idea. It's not a manual gearbox at all.

While I agree with much of what you've said, I take issue with the bolder statement. PDK is in fact a manual gear box with automated clutch and throttle inputs. It in fact has clutch and friction plates (2 sets). It is very fun to drive and is fast and more precise than almost any driver could be. I still find the manual tranny to be more gratifying. It's like putting a plane on auto pilot, it will hold a course more precisely and fly an ILS with no deviation, but it does not compare to the feeling one gets from hand flying well which one will lose the skill to do if always using technology to help.

I imagine people said the same thing about synchromesh when it first was introduced. Certainly there are not many folks that have a clue about double clutching anymore and on some level someone who drives a crash box well has superior skill too someone who can't.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

While I agree with much of what you've said, I take issue with the bolder statement. PDK is in fact a manual gear box with automated clutch and throttle inputs. It in fact has clutch and friction plates (2 sets). It is very fun to drive and is fast and more precise than almost any driver could be. I still find the manual tranny to be more gratifying. It's like putting a plane on auto pilot, it will hold a course more precisely and fly an ILS with no deviation, but it does not compare to the feeling one gets from hand flying well which one will lose the skill to do if always using technology to help.

I imagine people said the same thing about synchromesh when it first was introduced. Certainly there are not many folks that have a clue about double clutching anymore and on some level someone who drives a crash box well has superior skill too someone who can't.

Sorry, chap, PDK is NOT a manual gearbox. Period. It's automatic.

What's it's not is a torque converter automatic. It's an automatic with two clutches etc. It changes gears automatically. It does not allow for manual changes. It's an automatic.

Moreover I don't care if it's faster and more precise than a human driver. That's an argument for having the car do everything as you just sit there as a passenger. It's an argument for the ultimate driver's car being one where you actually do no driving at all. And thus it's a non argument!

The synchro thing is a complete red herring too and one that people often bring up in a futile attempt to justify PDK. Synchro is just a more refined mechanism. It's doesn't take control and involvement away from the driver and hand it over to a computer and servos.

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by pothole

Sorry, chap, PDK is NOT a manual gearbox. Period. It's automatic.

What's it's not is a torque converter automatic. It's an automatic with two clutches etc. It changes gears automatically. It does not allow for manual changes. It's an automatic.

What? Not sure if you understand how a PDK works, but it most certainly does allow for manual changes. You move a stick and the gear changes. Only when you move the stick. Not before, not after, and not without you moving the stick. That is a manual (Latin: manualis: "of or belonging to the hand") action, not an automatic one.

Now I am no apologist for the PDK and I absolutely prefer the 6-speed, but the PDK does, in fact, "allow for manual changes." It also has an automatic mode that allows you to make no manual changes.

From reading various posts I'm not sure a lot of people understand this.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

What? Not sure if you understand how a PDK works, but it most certainly does allow for manual changes. You move a stick and the gear changes. Only when you move the stick. Not before, not after, and not without you moving the stick. That is a manual (Latin: manualis: "of or belonging to the hand") action, not an automatic one.

Now I am no apologist for the PDK and I absolutely prefer the 6-speed, but the PDK does, in fact, "allow for manual changes." It also has an automatic mode that allows you to make no manual changes.

From reading various posts I'm not sure a lot of people understand this.

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

I've gotten it from the get go. I see your point, but you've missed mine. What I get now is that this is a semantic argument. It's no matter, we can agree that we both prefer to operate the right pedal ourselves...

[pothole]

Originally Posted by shadrach74

I've gotten it from the get go. I see your point, but you've missed mine. What I get now is that this is a semantic argument. It's no matter, we can agree that we both prefer to operate the right pedal ourselves...

What did I miss?

[shadrach74]

Originally Posted by pothole

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

It only "decides what to do" in so much that it decides precisely how much to blip the throttle. It does not over ride the driver unless the driver does something stupid like try to make a downshift that would exceed redline. It is quite possible to be ham fisted with PDK and smack into the rev limiter.

The automatic on my lexus has a manual linkage to the tranny via the shifter. If I manually select first there is a physical linkage between the selector and the tranny. By your logic, is my GS 400 a manual? If so, you should let Lexus know, because they never offered the car with a manual transmission...

I take that the air shifters utilized on racing machines are automatics in your mind?

[NoGaBiker]

Originally Posted by pothole

Yeah, I think it's you who doesn't understand how PDK works.

You do realise that when you move that "stick" all you are doing is sending a signal to a computer. Nothing you manually manipulate is of any consequence. You may as well be pressing a small button.

In a manual gearbox, it's the movement of your hand directly connected to mechanisms that deselects one gear and selects another. Same for the clutch, albeit the physical connection is hydraulic.

There is nothing manual about PDK. You press a button, a signal is sent to a computer, it decides what to do. And then it does it.

PDK does not allow for manual changes. It does the changes.

Get it, now?

I get it now no more or less than I did before. Whether the control action is initiated by moving a stick that is attached to a gear box, moving a stick that is attached to electronics that are attached to a gear box, or pushing a button that is attached to a gearbox, the point of "manual control" is this: when you tell the gearbox to do something, it does it, when I say, how I say. If the computer would rather be in 4th and I'd like to be in 6th, I win. It does what I say, immediately. That's manual control. Both by the linguistics definition of the word (as I pointed out so elequently above) and by the notional definition long affixed by automotive junkies such as your- and myself. This is why even though you could "control" a Tiptronic with buttons or a stick, it wasn't a manual -- it took your "suggestion" and eventually got around to going to that gear as long as it didn't really think you shouldn't be there.

I can put my house thermostat on automatic and let it do what it needs to, or I can switch it to manual and take control of the temperature -- all with the same set of buttons talking to the same logic board. I don't have to go down to the furnace room and shovel coal for it to be manual control of the temperature in my house.

And on the opposite side of the spectrum, I have a 68 Cadillac convertible with an automatic TH 400 transmission. There is not the first sign of a logic board or even of a wire going into that transmission. Nothing between me and the transmission that's not mechanical. I can shift it manually with a stick that comes out of the steering wheel -- no buttons. But this does not a manual transmission make. It is an automatic NOT because it has an electronic interface between me and it, but because it doesn't shift with precision, delivering the gear I order up immediately upon my ordering it.

Cheers!

[pothole]

Originally Posted by NoGaBiker

I get it now no more or less than I did before. Whether the control action is initiated by moving a stick that is attached to a gear box, moving a stick that is attached to electronics that are attached to a gear box, or pushing a button that is attached to a gearbox, the point of "manual control" is this: when you tell the gearbox to do something, it does it, when I say, how I say. If the computer would rather be in 4th and I'd like to be in 6th, I win. It does what I say, immediately. That's manual control. Both by the linguistics definition of the word (as I pointed out so elequently above) and by the notional definition long affixed by automotive junkies such as your- and myself. This is why even though you could "control" a Tiptronic with buttons or a stick, it wasn't a manual -- it took your "suggestion" and eventually got around to going to that gear as long as it didn't really think you shouldn't be there.

I can put my house thermostat on automatic and let it do what it needs to, or I can switch it to manual and take control of the temperature -- all with the same set of buttons talking to the same logic board. I don't have to go down to the furnace room and shovel coal for it to be manual control of the temperature in my house.

And on the opposite side of the spectrum, I have a 68 Cadillac convertible with an automatic TH 400 transmission. There is not the first sign of a logic board or even of a wire going into that transmission. Nothing between me and the transmission that's not mechanical. I can shift it manually with a stick that comes out of the steering wheel -- no buttons. But this does not a manual transmission make. It is an automatic NOT because it has an electronic interface between me and it, but because it doesn't shift with precision, delivering the gear I order up immediately upon my ordering it.

Cheers!

Except for the gearbox doesn't change gear "when and how you say" with PDK. You've no control at all over the selection of the gears or the actuation of the clutch. The computer controls everything.

You have no control over how the different parts of the process are orchestrated, how smooth or jerky the change is or anything else. It's no more manual than pressing a button to turn the car on after which it does everything itself.

You have the illusion of manual control because the computer usually agrees that it's OK to change gear when you press the button. But try changing down at 7,000rpm and you'll find out exactly how manual PDK is. Yes, that's a safety feature to protect the engine. But it illustrates that it's the computer that makes the final call over whether to change gear at all, let alone how the gear change is executed.

PDK is an automatic gearbox. Why are people so scared to accept that? It's miles better than a manual in many regards. Why not embrace that?