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Old 10-21-2012, 10:35 PM   #1
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C&D: 2013 Scion FR-S vs. 2012 Porsche Cayman S

2013 Scion FR-S vs. 2012 Porsche Cayman S - Yahoo! Autos

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Old 10-22-2012, 05:03 AM   #2
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Funny how they copied everything from the Pcar….except the acceleration and handling.

Looks like a cheap Chinese knockoff. If this car doesn't offend the Chinese, this comment won't either.

See You on the Road! (in my rearview)
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Old 10-22-2012, 03:58 PM   #3
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Similar to the Miata vs Boxster story. The Miata is a wonderful car - until you drive a Boxster. Then the Miata looks cheaper, is slower, and doesn't handle as well. Sometimes a higher price does buy more car.
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Old 10-22-2012, 05:34 PM   #4
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Guys come on, tilt your nose back down to being level, let fragile your egos down for a bit and realize what a horrific job C&D did here. Comparing a Caymen to a Toyobaru is just dumb, no different than it would be comparing a Boxster or Caymen to a Ferrari Enzo then having their owners parading around gloating how extra money spent is well worth it. Let's see a 5 or 10 year cost of ownership comparison between the T and P cars and we'll you guys who are gloating will be silent. For crying out loud the T car costs less than half that of a Caymen yet is 90% what our cars are... for that extra money you could make either a Miata or T car both out-handle and well out-accelerate our cars and still get better reliability and have money left over for gas.

That article was simply stupid, the reactions here seem like Porsche snobbery and ego instead of logic... and YES I do own a Boxster now and had another one prior and NO I do not wish to own the T-car. Love my car but no need to try to compare these cars or gloat while convincing others what a brilliant decision we made buying the cars we did. I for one would love to drive that car, not for the sake of bashing it but for the thrill of driving sporty cars... and I would not expect it to be the same or better than any car running twice it's price.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:40 PM   #5
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Leeper,

I agree with a lot of what you say. While I've not driven an FR-S, I think the concept of an inexpensive, reliable, purpose built sports car with an engine in the right place. C&D admitted that it was an unfair fight, but there were enough similarities to examine how the 2 compared.
As the owner of a high end Toyota product (lex GS400) I can tell you that if the new FR-S continues to be refined and improved, Porsche may in fact have a true competitor in the mid-engined sports car segment. I bet a lot of people poopooed the early Lexus products. Fast forward to 1998 and the GS was the fastest 4door in production and import car of the year. Toyota will continue to refine what the Germans pioneer and offer it for less. If the FR-S is a money maker, it will continue to get better and better and better. I am excited that Japanese are building performance oriented rear drivers at almost all price points. Perhaps Detroit will figure it out at some point.

Last edited by shadrach74; 10-23-2012 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:49 PM   #6
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Motor trend put the Suburu in their performance car shoot out, and it ended up with 3rd place, right below the Nissan GTR and the new 911.
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Old 10-22-2012, 06:53 PM   #7
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Also, this is a key paragraph to the article that some of you might have missed...

"This is not a typical Car and Driver comparison test. Here we're looking mostly for relative value, which is a slippery thing. We therefore tried to reconcile price with goodness—i.e., if a car is three times as expensive as its rival, it must be three times more fun, rewarding, and well-executed to win. The Price Factor represents the price ratio between the two cars; the Experience Factor is derived from a modified version of our usual scoring format. If the price number is larger, cheap wins; if the experience number is larger, expensive reigns supreme."
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:45 PM   #8
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I don't care what you guys say, I love the FRS/BRZ/GT86. For those of you who don't know, it comes from amazing heritage (Hachi-Roku), and is an amazing car to drive. It may not have the power, but I guarantee you it is every bit as much fun in the twisties as your boxster. If you don't believe me, test drive it.
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Old 10-22-2012, 09:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thstone View Post
Similar to the Miata vs Boxster story. The Miata is a wonderful car - until you drive a Boxster. Then the Miata looks cheaper, is slower, and doesn't handle as well. Sometimes a higher price does buy more car.
I said this because I also own a Miata. I know firsthand that it is cheaper to purchase and cheaper to maintain and great fun to drive. But I also know that its not a Boxster; not on the street and not on the track. No Porsche snobbery, just my opinion from having owned and driven both cars extensively.
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Old 10-22-2012, 11:30 PM   #10
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I just sold my second Miata in 15 years and goddarn if it had a bit more head and legroom I would have been pressed to keep it for commuter instead of my Boxster. They are the most tossable cars I've ever owned, even more fun than the boxster at lower (read : Bay Area area) speeds , just not as comfortable for a 6'2 guy and lacked the prestige to park next to all my coworker's Lexus' and Bimmers.
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Old 10-23-2012, 02:24 AM   #11
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We had a similar comparo here in Australia the Cayman Vs the Subaru BRZ a couple of months ago when the Toyo/Subi twins became available.

The bottom line was not too different driving wise, but the cost differential is HUGE compared th the US, the BRZ = +/- $US37,000 while the Porsche = +/- $US160,000.

To say that the Porsche is significantly different in cost (its 4 times the cost of the BRZ) just highlights a completely different story to the C&D writeup for us Aussies .....
The Cayman may be a better car - but 4 times better, I think not !!
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:43 AM   #12
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I'm trying to get my wife to buy the Subaru to replace her RSX, but so far she's not biting. The styling is a bit "boy racer", she's stuck on the Audi A5. Their performance would be greatly enhanced by a better wheel/tire package, and there's already talk of a turbo version down the road.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:08 AM   #13
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My point did not come from looking down my nose but rather from holding it! They are "knocking off" our car - just like clothing, spare parts, electronics, etc. when does it stop? As long as people will buy them and do not care where it came from, it will continue. Anyone can "reverse engineer" a product. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery…unless it involves copying someone else's work!
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:32 AM   #14
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How is it a knock-off? It's a front engine coupe, and Subaru has always had boxer engines (as far as I know). The styling is more like a 270Z than a Box.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:04 AM   #15
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Mr2 comparison to Boxster.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:10 AM   #16
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I certainly do not understand the arguement

that the car is a knock off? I guess you could use that same logic to conclude that the boxster is a knock off of a model T...etc. as they are both convertibles. There are really no similarities between the cars besides the boxer engines and the fact that they are good handling sport coupes. These kind of magazine comparisons are interesting but do little to influence the buying public as someone shopping for a car in the price range of the cayman is not even going to consider the toy/subi. Perhaps if they were looking at a used cayman vs a new FRS/BRZ it might make a little more sense, but then again, someone considering a used cayman is still likely to purchase that car or something that was originally priced similarly to that car when new (vette, m3, etc.)
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:12 AM   #17
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I believe the MR2 spyder was available before the 987. Maybe the general public sees the resemblance but most car "people" are going to know one from the other immediately.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:24 AM   #18
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MR2 Spyder definitely took inspiration from 986 - lightweight affordable mid-engined roadster, down to the rear looks like the front styling.

Dimensionally, BRZ/FRS closely resembles the 98x series. Toyota/Subaru even mentioned in the press release that the center of gravity is 1" lower than the Cayman.

Don't forget Chris Harris also did a comparison between these cars first so you can't blame C&D for doing a "horrible job".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUhLXvxlQR4

Last edited by ekam; 10-23-2012 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:42 AM   #19
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Review

I am a 986 2.7L owner. I have driven the 2013 FR-S and 2013 MX-5 1-2 month(s) ago.

Here is my review.

The FR-S:
FR-S's electric steering suprisingly has good feedback and response. The interior was very good ergonomically., but cheap looking. Everything was in the right place. The seat was amazing. Very sporty with good support. Back Seats=I am 5'11". I had enough legroom, but the front seat is low. Your feet get tucked under the front seat and there is not enough space to even move your toes. Also, I was hitting my head on the rear window. The trunk was the worst part. The FR-S Trunk has less space then the MX-5 or Boxster rear trunk. I thought it would have the largest trunk but I was wrong. The FR-S has a very light clutch. I couldn't even tell if I was pushing the clutch or not because it feels like it does not even exist. The Toyota dealer said this is to make it less tiring to drive in traffic. I felt that it took away from the driving experience.

The MX-5:
I have nothing bad to say about this car except the clutch also has a light feeling, but better than FRS. It was much more fun to drive than the FR-S. It has a higher quality interior. More trunk space. Much Smaller turning circle than both the FR-S and 986 meaning you can make a U-turn in very narrow street. The steering felt amazing. The engine noise was good. Very peppy engine that revs fast. It feels faster than it is. And it accepts regular gas and has excellent reliability. I found it to be a very comfortable car. But at the limit, it has too much body roll to inspire confidence. It needs sway bars to eliminate most of that body roll. 167HP is plenty for 2300 lbs, but there are $4000 supercharger and turbo kits available for 220-250whp. It is a car you know will always start and take you to your destination even though you can beat on it everyday.

The 986:
Its louder. Its faster with a much higher top speed than the other 2 cars. It handles a bit better. It accelerates a bit quicker. It turns more heads. It has a much heavier clutch. It has more feedback. It has a more comfortable interior except for the fact that the steering wheel won't tilt up for people taller than 5'10". My steering wheel blocks the top of the gauges because it won't tilt up. And obviously, we don't have the lower maintenance/repair costs or gas mileage or insurance rates as the other 2 cars. At the same time, the 986 is the most practical in terms of defined storage space with its second larger trunk.

Once my 986 dies or possibly sells in the future, I will probably go for an MX-5 and turbo it, then possibly a Cayman S/R later in life if everything goes well financially. Lets face it, if the 1989+ Miata wasn't so popular, the 96+ Boxster, Z3/Z4, and SLK might have not existed.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:45 PM   #20
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Excellent review ProjectM96!

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