Anyone Master Downshift Rev-Matching

[shadrach74]

Hi guys, I'm new here. Bought a 2002 S about 3 weeks ago and I'm still sorting through it.

The difficulty with the Boxster (or at least the 6 speed S IME) is that the ratios between gears are not spread evenly. 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th are relatively close, 1st and 2nd are relatively tall. The 3rd to 2nd shift in my car requires about 1300rpm rise, while a 5th to 4th requires about 800rpm rise. I'm getting better, but am still not able to drive the car as well as the other two manual cars I spend time in (330CI and Cooper S). The fact is the only way to shift this car well is to recognize that the cogs are spaced differently and and account for it when heel and toeing. The pedals are presented perfectly, it's just a matter of discipline...

[Bigsmoothlee]

You just need to practice until it becomes 2nd nature.

When you get really good, you'll be able to downshift without the clutch. And in some cases, you may feel like popping it out of 4th without the clutch, putting the gas pedal to the floor,and popping it into 2nd gear to accelerate without even lifting the throttle....

I spent years mastering that technique on old BMWs. Rev matching is a must for me on any downshift, city or track.

[ekam]

Watch the first part of this video:
Heel Toe Driving Technique - YouTube

Originally Posted by Bigsmoothlee

When you get really good, you'll be able to downshift without the clutch.

There's a reason why there's a clutch pedal.

[Kianfar]

I'm not too keen on the heal and toe method as I don't track this car. I just want smooth up****************s, and smooth downshifts. The closer I can get it to feeling like an automatic car, the better I feel. However, it seems like there is a lot of work involved. So far it seems like the recommended method is as follow. So example scenario coming from 5th to 4th, or 4th to 3rd.

1. Clutch in
2. Remove Gear to Neutral Position
3. Rev The engine - While clutch engaged
4. Move gear to new lower gear
5. Let clutch out

Now my only question is on step 2 to 3, when you put the gear in neutral, more than likely the RPM will drop from whatever it is to around 1500. I know this needs some speed, to not lose all the RPM say from 4000 or 3000, but is that ok?

[pothole]

Kianfar:

Heel and toe is great for the road. Do not be mistaken in thinking it's a track only technique.

I'm going to say that trying to save the synchros is overkill. For me, it's all about smooth changes and driving pleasure. It's just a nice fringe benefit that it saves the clutch if done well.

So, assuming braking is involved:

1. Lift off throttle
2. Apply brake and clutch in at roughly the same time (being sure to position your right foot on brake pedal so that you are ready to blip throttle while maintaining brake pressure)
3. select new gear
4. Blip throttle and then immediately pop the clutch out

If you're just coasting down without using the brake, or downshift for an overtake or whatever then simply change "2." to "clutch in".

Having said all that, putting this into a list is somewhat misleading - there's overlap in places and the whole thing is more of a single flowing process, if done well. Obviously at the outset you're going to nee to break down the steps. But the aim should bea nice smooth process and a gearchange where you can't feel the clutch being fed in.

[san rensho]

Originally Posted by pothole

Kianfar:

Heel and toe is great for the road. Do not be mistaken in thinking it's a track only technique.

I'm going to say that trying to save the synchros is overkill. For me, it's all about smooth changes and driving pleasure. It's just a nice fringe benefit that it saves the clutch if done well.

So, assuming braking is involved:

1. Lift off throttle
2. Apply brake and clutch in at roughly the same time (being sure to position your right foot on brake pedal so that you are ready to blip throttle while maintaining brake pressure)
3. select new gear
4. Blip throttle and then immediately pop the clutch out

If you're just coasting down without using the brake, or downshift for an overtake or whatever then simply change "2." to "clutch in".

Having said all that, putting this into a list is somewhat misleading - there's overlap in places and the whole thing is more of a single flowing process, if done well. Obviously at the outset you're going to nee to break down the steps. But the aim should bea nice smooth process and a gearchange where you can't feel the clutch being fed in.

Sorry, you are wrong. The idea behind rev matching downshifting is to save both the clutch and the gear box. Your advice will kill the gearbox.

[pothole]

Originally Posted by san rensho

Sorry, you are wrong. The idea behind rev matching downshifting is to save both the clutch and the gear box. Your advice will kill the gearbox.

Nope, rev matching is for whatever you want it to be. For me, I initially learned to do it to allow downshifts without upsetting the balance of the car. For others, they may do it purely in the name of mechanical sympathy.

Secondly, it's hysterical nonsense to say my advice will kill the gearbox. Hardly anyone does any kind of rev matching with manuals and modern gearboxes are engineered in this context. They can cope fine, as I can attest from probably a couple of hundred k of manual driving myself.

Very, very few people heel and toe according to your method. That's not to say it's wrong. If it's what you prefer, that's just dandy. But you will not destroy gearboxes in any properly engineered modern car (that includes Boxsters) by heel and toeing in the conventional method as I described. That's just twaddle.

No doubt some of the older cars in your sig appreciate rev matching as you describe, but it's just not necessary in a Box.

[Johnny Danger]

I love to rev match . I'm doing it now !

[san rensho]

Originally Posted by pothole

Nope, rev matching is for whatever you want it to be. For me, I initially learned to do it to allow downshifts without upsetting the balance of the car. For others, they may do it purely in the name of mechanical sympathy.

Secondly, it's hysterical nonsense to say my advice will kill the gearbox. Hardly anyone does any kind of rev matching with manuals and modern gearboxes are engineered in this context. They can cope fine, as I can attest from probably a couple of hundred k of manual driving myself.

Very, very few people heel and toe according to your method. That's not to say it's wrong. If it's what you prefer, that's just dandy. But you will not destroy gearboxes in any properly engineered modern car (that includes Boxsters) by heel and toeing in the conventional method as I described. That's just twaddle.

No doubt some of the older cars in your sig appreciate rev matching as you describe, but it's just not necessary in a Box.

How much more difficult is it to blip the throttle in neutral, BEFORE you engage the lower gear? And do you doubt that blipping the throttle before shifting is better for the tranny?

[Kianfar]

This is working great for me:

1. Clutch in
2. Remove Gear to Neutral Position
3. Rev The engine - While clutch depressed
4. Move gear to new lower gear
5. Let clutch out

[southernstar]

I find that the pedals on the Boxster are set up perfectly in order to allow you to pivot the ball of your right foot side-to-side, rather than heel-and-toe between the brake pedal and the accelerator pedal (although I suppose that having somewhat wide feet helps!). I still double-clutch out of habit, although in a car with good synchronizers it isn't really necessary - all you are trying to do is equalize the revs so that upon release of the clutch in the new lower gear, additional strain is not put on the drivetrain and the balance of the car is not upset by engine braking. Even if you aren't pushing the car to a point where it is strictly necessary, smoother is better in driving any car (and the blip of the throttle on downshifts just sounds cool)!

Brad

[CoBeerToad]

I might be on the wrong page here, but maybe this might be helpful. If not call me a noob and ignore.

I don't use my clutch after getting into second gear when up shifting, or when down shifting. When preparing for a down shift, I just rev up the motor a bit and when the tension is off the shifter, I pull it into neutral. Then I rev up the motor enough and push on the shifter. When it hits it's "shift zone" it will pull the shifter into gear. Perhaps I am killing my transmission by doing this. It doesn't feel like I am. And I have never ran into any problems with any of the manual cars I have driven.

Up shifting is about the same as all manual transmissions have, what I heard referred as a "shift zone." I rev up 1st too high to shift into second without the clutch, but all the other shifts are very easy. I just run second and I'll go past the "shift zone" a bit and pull the shifter out of gear and then push it into third. When the RPMs drop a bit, it just grabs right in. (Obviously, this is not for racing).

[san rensho]

What you are doing is double clutching without using the clutch. As long as you hit exactly the right rpms, it will shift every time, but get it a little wrong and it grinds hard, and you are shaving off all kinds of bits on the gear teeth. Problem with your method is that it is very slow and very prone to error, and a big learning curve where you are damaging the gears.

I've done this when the clutch on one of my previous cars went completely. I had to start the car in 1st gear, bucking alll over the place, then shifting to second and 3 and back down while limping home. Not fun but doable.

[Frodo]

Originally Posted by san rensho

I've done this when the clutch on one of my previous cars went completely. I had to start the car in 1st gear, bucking alll over the place, then shifting to second and 3 and back down while limping home. Not fun but doable.

I had the same experience ages ago (in the '70s) when a girlfriend and I were traveling in her car, a Toyota IIRC. Drove it all the way from Harpers Ferry, WV, to Charlottesville, VA with no clutch. Got pretty good at it along the way. You're right: starting out is the tough part. Once you get rolling, you do everything humanly possible to avoid coming to a complete stop. It can get kinda tricky, especially timing stop lights, especially if there's much in the line of traffic.

[jmatta]

I've done this when the clutch on one of my previous cars went completely. I had to start the car in 1st gear, bucking alll over the place, then shifting to second and 3 and back down while limping home. Not fun but doable.

I had this happen to my '86 911 at the track and drove 123 miles home w/o a clutch. Very doable, if you have a feel for the spot where everything meshes.

I don't even think about my heel & toe method...it just comes naturally with practice.

[ekam]

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