The torch has passed...

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by SeanZ4

quote:

"Sex with her might be fun. "

Ekam..... Maybe so, but I have this very strict policy about "dating" outside of my own species!

What's with the 964's? I too, am looking at a black '90, cab, with tip and 80k mi. The miles are a little higher than I'd like and the tip is a so-so thing for me, but the rest of the car is pretty nice. Has anyone else traded a box in for a 964? If so, what should I expect the one I'm looking at to be worth??? They're asking 19k for it.

sean

The 964 is a great car. It has the largest production air-cooled engine at 3.6L, it also is the last of the 'true' 911's. The doors and fenders will bolt right up to a '66, so the lineage is there, unlike the 993 which is actually a transition series to the 996. It's also a small car, much smaller than the boxster or 993, 996, 997 are, so it has a sportier feel to it.

The series originated in 1989 as the Carrera 4 all-wheel drive, adapted not from the 959 as commonly thought, but rather from the 958 Rally cars. Initially, the Porschephiles and Auto mags poo-pooed the car as not being true to Porsche with the all-wheel drive, even though Porsche deliberately biased the system 69/31 Fr/Rr to maintain the true Porsche 'feel'. They also remarked that the car had too much understeer. Also criticized was the weight (250lbs.) and expense of maintaining the all-wheel drive system. While it is heavier, the Carrera 4 has the same 0-60 and Top Speed as the Carrera 2, but it's .2 sec. slower in the 1/4 mile. In response, Porsche in 1990 came out with a rear-wheel drive car and named it the Carrrera 2.

But, in recent years, many of the car mags have revisited the 964 Carrera 4 and have praised it highly saying the all-wheel drive system has held up well, the handling is superior to the Carrera 2, and that the car is now of the of the best values out there in used Porsches.

A few caveats:

First, the car used 12 spark plugs and twin distributors. The first is shaft driven and the 2nd is driven by a toothed rubber belt from the shaft of the first. The belts on these tended to break suddenly and if at the wrong point in engine rotation, would grenade the motor. Best case it would only fire on 6 plugs and run like crap.

It was found that Ozone, created from the rotor sparking, would build up inside the distributor. Ozone degrades rubber and so in time, would cause the belt to break. The fix turned out to be a simple vent tube, routed from the primary distributor to the air intake to draw the Ozone out of the dizzy where it could be burned off. The vent kit costs about $12, so be sure any you're looking at have this, or prepare to add it.

Also, the M64 motor was the first by Porsche to do away with head gaskets. Unfortunately, many of the heads warped allowing a loss of compression and oil spillage. The fix was to re-machine the heads to accept a headgasket. This one is spendy, so be sure someone else has already had this conversion done (most have been done by now). Porsche themselves recognized this and as of '92, all 964's produced had headgaskets.

The early M64 motor (964) had solid lifters and so requires a valve lash adjustment every 15k mi. - can be a DIY, but cumbersome, otherwise expect to pay about $600 to have this done. An alternative is to put 993 heads on the car with their hydraulic lifters which require no adjustment.

The valve covers were plastic and also tended to warp and leak. The fix is to switch to 965 (Turbo) billet alloy valve covers, not cheap, but it's fixed.

As the cars age, they have a tendency to allow fuel vapors to leak from the tank to the cockpit. This is usually aging hoses or worst case a bad fuel filler neck. This was upgraded and costs about $250.

The radios, the only Alpine units used by Porsche, are crap. Most of the CD units are now inoperable and there is no one who repairs them. Many owners look for the Boxster radios many of you take out. That includes me, if anyone is selling a CD 220 unit, contact me please.

The cars, similar to the Boxster, also have dual mass flywheels and some think they are problematic. In truth, they are about the same as those on the Boxster, not really a big deal. But, Porsche used the M64 motor in the RS America cars and used a single mass flywheel and spring dampened clutch plate, so this is always an alternative.

Other than this, these are very robust cars and are true bargains. Carrera 4's are less in demand because many are still mis-informed and so they tend to be the best bargains. Carerra 2's command higher prices. But, as always, a PPI and full Service History are paramount to selecting a good example.

As far as the one you're looking at is concerned, 80k with a TipS, it seems a little high to me. Mine is a one-owner 20k mi. 5-speed car, with all the updates and I didn't pay $20k for it. It was a distress sale out of FL, so this likely explains why I got the deal I did, but there are others out there. So my advice is if it doesn't seem exactly the right deal, keep looking.

Cheers!

[SeanZ4]

Thank you, thank you.... LB for taking the time to share your info. I was back on it this a.m. - I think the tip is going to be the deal breaker for me. I think that was pretty rare for a 964 car. I remember when they came out and thinking to myself.... "oh uhggg how reliable are those things going to be"?? I still like the styling and vintage feel about them though. Here's the link to the car if anyone is interested.

http://kansascity.craigslist.org/ctd/1869728901.html

It has a clean carfax for what that's worth and the dealership is somewhat reputable in the KC area. It's close to the bmw and porsche dealerships in KC and they get a lot of their cast-offs. If you go to their website and read deeper into it, it's had some pretty recent major stuff done...

I may get a wild hair and contact them today...

sean

[SeanZ4]

Are those the correct wheels for this car? Also, the wheel center caps look fake to me...too bright...

sean

[dallison]

Rare in the 90's was this tiptronic automatic transmission. Now days the majority of porsches are automatic.

they obvoiusly know nothing about porsches.

[SeanZ4]

You're right Dallison, they don't know much about p-cars. From the carfax it was a Florida car. I swore I'd never buy a car from the sun-belt again. I had a Z3 that lived it's early years in Tampa and it was fried from the sun. I didn't notice all the sun fading until after I had owned the car for awhile... Top of the steering wheel was fried, top of the seats were fried.... It used to be you didn't want a car from the rust-belt, but I've found the cleanest sports cars actually come from... well, here in the midwest. They spend their winters and hellishly hot summers inside. I have family in Long Beach CA. Down the block from their house is a white 964 that has sat in the street for years. It is beat to hell. It's so beat up that I stopped and took pictures of it a few years ago. My little brother lives in DC, same thing. I've seen a lot of nice cars just whiskey-dented to death. Ok, I'm rambling....

sean

[pothole]

Originally Posted by dallison

they obvoiusly know nothing about porsches.

Eh? Try finding a decent 993 manual in the UK. They're all bloody tips.

[Quickurt]

If you don't stay on this forum and remain our friend, we'll not name any of OUR children Lil Bastard, either!!
It's always a sad day watching a loved one leave.
My 86 year old mother moved to West Virginia yesterday.
I can't imagine what it would be like to have to sell my Boxster!

[Burg Boxster]

Congrats on the sale of your Boxster Jim...

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by SeanZ4

Are those the correct wheels for this car? Also, the wheel center caps look fake to me...too bright...

sean

They are likely Turbo II wheels, genuine Porsche but incorrect, same with the center caps.

OEM Wheels were the 16" Design 90 wheels as are on my car. Optional were the Turbo Cup wheels in 17". BBS, HRE and Kineses were also optional non-porsche wheels. The Design 90 wheels are actually the lightest and strongest of the bunch.

The center caps of the era have a much more 'hand painted' look to them than those currently available.

For 1990 only, the OEM Tire supplier was BF Goodrich with the Comp TA Z4. These were on my car when I bought it, which I drove up from FL on and then promptly changed them as two had delaminated internally on the trip home being 20 yrs. old and all. In keeping with originality (as much as possible), I replaced them with BF Goodrich g-Force Super Sport A/S tires which I'm really pleased with.

Cheers!

[pothole]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

The 964 is a great car. It has the largest production air-cooled engine at 3.6L, it also is the last of the 'true' 911's. The doors and fenders will bolt right up to a '66, so the lineage is there, unlike the 993 which is actually a transition series to the 996.

Yeah, not at all convinced of that. The 993 is just an extensively revised variant of the original 911. It really has nothing to do with the 996, which is genuinely a new architecture. Like all the air-cooled 911s, the 993 retains the heavy engineering of the original. I wouldn't like to have to choose between a 964 and a 993, love them both. As for the 996, well, it ain't quite the same, is it?

Anyway, love your new ride, I'm a huge fan of 964s.

[Lil bastard]

Originally Posted by pothole

Yeah, not at all convinced of that. The 993 is just an extensively revised variant of the original 911. It really has nothing to do with the 996, which is genuinely a new architecture. Like all the air-cooled 911s, the 993 retains the heavy engineering of the original. I wouldn't like to have to choose between a 964 and a 993, love them both. As for the 996, well, it ain't quite the same, is it?

Anyway, love your new ride, I'm a huge fan of 964s.

The 993 uses the same M64 motor as the 964, except with redesigned heads (w/ hydraulic lifters) and a hot film MAF similar to the 996 unlike the old cantilevered door air meter of the 964 - a throwback to K-jetronic.

The 993 is larger dimensionally, heavier, has different fenders, headlights, doors, a much more 'raked' windshield. Many of it's parts were shared with the 986 and 996.

It is a much more 'fluid' design and IMHO quite striking, but it is definitely not in the orig. 911 lineage. I would have no objection to owning a 993 at all, but I see it as a different car, one more in keeping with Porsche's future than it's past. I have the opposite view of the 964.

The 964 differs mechanically from the earlier 911's in that it's the first w/ all-wheel drive, 1st to have coil springs rather than torsion bars, 1st to have power steering, 1st to have ABS brakes. But dimensionally, it is the same and shares the same body panels as earlier cars, so you could actually make the arguement that the SC series is really the last of the 911's considering body/mechanical together and be on firm ground.

Cheers!

[pothole]

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

The 993 is larger dimensionally, heavier, has different fenders, headlights, doors, a much more 'raked' windshield. Many of it's parts were shared with the 986 and 996.

Sorry old chap, but much of that absolutely is not true. The 993 windshield is identical, and that's because the core of the car is carried over from the previous generation. Put simply, the 993 is a facelift model, not a new model:




Likewise, the doors are only slightly tweaked for new handles. Yes, the fenders and lights are new, but new fenders and lights maketh not a new car. As for sharing parts with the 986 / 996, yes there are some minor bits shared - but nothing of consequence. The 986 / 996 is a clean break with all new chassis and powertrains unrelated to the 993, whereas the 993 is an upgraded version of an existing car.

Personally, I'd say the rear suspension was the biggest change that came with the 993. But the key thing about the 993 is that it's a revised version of the original 911 and benefits from a quality of engineering that you don't get with the 986 / 996 onwards.

I'm not arguing that the 993 is better than the 964 or anything silly like that. But it's very much the last of the air-cooled models based on the original 911 architecture and not a half way house or transitional car.