6% off MSRP?

[Brucelee]

"Sometimes I think there's no difference. The traded car ends up with a wholesaler regardless of make.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks."

Actually you are correct here. The Porsche dealer MAY have a buyer for that particular car and then can sweeten his trade offer. But most times, we are all looking at the same data.

If there is big diff, the dealer may simply be shuffling dollars around.

Good luck.

[Perfectlap]

well I was reporting on my experiences selling popular cars on Ebay. Undesireable cars which may be the bulk of what's on Ebay (I don't know) surely are less attractive and don't sell as quickly. Populars Cars sold by dealers also don't sell as quickly as cars sold by private owners because they have to recoup their overhead costs. But Popular cars like a well maintained 95 911 sold by a private owner is the type of auction bidders love to find.

As I said, I have made many times the bluebook value for those well maintained cars I have sold on ebay. An enourmous relief to me as I thought I would never recoup the maintenance costs and upgrades. But that's the whole point, bidders with a little cash in their pockets are looking to buy well maintened cars, they don't have time to deal with unexpected repairs and thus are willing to go abve the bluebook. And my friends who are car enthusiasts as well, have all had similar experiences selling cars on ebay. We all agree, we NEVER could have done as well if we would have tried to sell the cars localy for the simple reason: the larger the audience the bigger the possibility of getting a buyer with more money to spend.
Also the SPEED of the sales is tremendous for popular cars. I surpassed the best local offer of my well maintained Miata within days of begining the no reserve auction and had to cancel the auction early because I was getting so many email offers. I decided to sell the Miata with the hardtop (which wasn't listed in the auction) before the auction ended for twice whay I was asking for locally.

My experience with other Japanese cars was identical. Even a lowly but immaculate Toyota Corolla I sold for a friend netted well north the blue book value. They didn't all sell within the auction period but it was quicker and less of a hassle than the constant phone calls from newspaper adds and the random person jotting down the phone number on a for sale sign glued to the rear window.

There are ways to safeguard your sale from a deadbeat bidder. For instance I will cancel bids if the seller does not provide me with contact information before bidding, if that bidders feedback were very low(below 100). And the statistics for Ebay motors are spectacular. Autobytel, Autotrade etc. Would LOVE to do the business that Ebay Motors is doing. Ebay stock is up 100% in the last two years, the Ebay Motors division has a large part to do with that. They sell a car every 6 minutes and I doubt most buyers are deadbeats.

I can't really think of any car buying experts who have ever said that trading in a car was anything but a losing proposition. books sold by experts who provid buyers with tips for purchasing a new car almost are unanimous:
trading is an extremely expensive luxury.

[Brucelee]

You keep referring to Blue Book Value as if there is one number that constitutes that value.

You need to come clean here. What blue book value are you talking about? KBB, retail, wholesale, PPT, or trade. You may or may not know that KBB rules in CA, and NADA in the rest of the country.

I stand by my statements on EBAY. It is not a good way to sell a car for a relatively high value ON AVERAGE! Exceptions occur but I can tell you that Porsche sellers will be very disappointed with what they are offered on EBAY.


And I agree with you that trading a car is usually the least financially desirable option. However, it is an option that millions of folks take each year.

[Perfectlap]

the kelley Blue book!

The arch enemy of car dealerships!
EVery car salesman I ever dealt with immediately rolls his eyes or makes
some pained facial gesture when I point out what www.kbb.com says a car is worth for a trade in, or purchase price.


On one ocassion at a large Toyota dealership the salesman literally lost his temper (yes at the customer) when I pointed out what awful deal they were offering. I tagged along with a friend who didn't speak English as first language and was about to get a very bad deal and even worse financing arrangements (despite having excellent credit). Well needless to say he raised his voice at the wrong guy. I didn't say two words to this guy and went directly to the regional manager and the car was purchased somewhere else.

By the way how do insurance policies determine the worth of a car if it is totaled in a wreck or is stolen and disapears to Russia? Any insurance guys on the forum?


by the way,
your 1995 968 Cab in Excellent condition with 56K miles?
Its worth nearly $19,000 if you sell it yourself
let's see how much the Porsche dealership offers you.

[Brucelee]

You did not answer the question. In point of fact, there are four values that are referenced in versions of the KBB. Which value of the KBB were you referring to above when you indicated that trade offers would equate 50% of Blue Book. You did not answer that question because this simply does not happen.

You may also know that used cars actually sell at widely divergent values from the KBB values. For example, it is widely known that Boxsters are selling far below Private Party Values from the KBB. If you don't believe me, simply go on Auto Trader.com and see what the private sellers are willing to sell their Boxsters for.

So, what values are you referring to?

In point of fact, when I look at establishing a value for trade, I look at auction values. Why? Because I can always go to the auction and buy a Boxster at that price, every week. Why would I pay you more for your trade, UNLESS, I have jacked up the price of the car I am selling you?

Insurance companies practices vary. Most will try to pay lower than retail value if you will let them get away with that. Interestingly, most folks don't know there is some wiggle room in the values here too!

Lastly, his Porsche is worth what he can sell it for, not what you say it is. If he can sell if for $21K it is worth that. If in four months, he sells it for $17K, it is worth that. He has to deal with the uncertainty of funding and timing and valuation. For that uncertainty, he MAY realize much more value than simply trading it in but then again, there are no guarantees. In four months he may be back to trade value. I know this is true as I buy Porsche's from guys everyday who have had the car on the market for months and then need the cash TODAY!



The fact that you feel you can value a car that you have never seen without knowledge of the local market shows that you may not know what you are talking about..

Originally Posted by Perfectlap

the kelley Blue book!

The arch enemy of car dealerships!
EVery car salesman I ever dealt with immediately rolls his eyes or makes
some pained facial gesture when I point out what www.kbb.com says a car is worth for a trade in, or purchase price.


On one ocassion at a large Toyota dealership the salesman literally lost his temper (yes at the customer) when I pointed out what awful deal they were offering. I tagged along with a friend who didn't speak English as first language and was about to get a very bad deal and even worse financing arrangements (despite having excellent credit). Well needless to say he raised his voice at the wrong guy. I didn't say two words to this guy and went directly to the regional manager and the car was purchased somewhere else.

By the way how do insurance policies determine the worth of a car if it is totaled in a wreck or is stolen and disapears to Russia? Any insurance guys on the forum?


by the way,
your 1995 968 Cab in Excellent condition with 56K miles?
Its worth nearly $19,000 if you sell it yourself
let's see how much the Porsche dealership offers you.

[Perfectlap]

I was referring to the the private owner selling price. Most consumers (I personally know) think of this price when they discuss the value of their used car they intend to sell. Most people I know who are not extremely wealthy and busy wouldn't ever trade in a car so they never refer to the retail trade-in value when they are figuring out the bluebook value.

And I'm not saying his 1995 968 is worth $19K, Kelley BB says it is.
(since he's from LI I put in NY when I ran the calculator)

Sure he might not find a buyer right away but the generally accepted guideline is the one put forward by the KBB. I'm not an economist so I can't say what the true woprth of a particular car is (whatever that means) but since most people don't know the auto business as well as dealers and at the same their is great distrust of auto sales industry, they turn to a third party to tell them what is "fair value" for a car.

A set of Carrera 5 spoke wheels can be purchased any day on Ebay for $3,000 with tires. Yet no one ever bids. Yet the seller has determined that $3,000 is the fair market value. Porsche believes it to be higher. Does this mean the wheels are not worth $3,000 because they are relisted week after week without a buyer? I've always thought of worth to be the amount of money I can recoup if I decide to sell without using/wearing down the product.

At some point a consumer with the money to spend on a nice set of new Carrera 5 spokes will make the purchase and no one will say that since he bought wheels that were sitting around for months, that he was ripped off for paying $3,000.

I guess their are two perspectives on "worth" what the consumers believe and
what the auto industry believes. Unless you are buying a Saturn(if they still do that).

By the way the car's I've sold for many friends, lend them to believe I do know what I'm talking about when I say how much their cars will bring in. Because so far with online auctions/ads its ALWAYS been higher than what either the KBB told them it was worth (to them as private sellers) or what the local used car lot guy offered them.

The ebay pricing for used car's often differs with the audience that car has.
Allot of conservative people don't feel comfortable buying a Boxster in an Ebay auction thus the bids come from a certain type of buyer, one that has greater trust in the internet than a more traditional buyer. An older 911 may have a different type of audience as well, one that regularly buys used parts from the internet and has much more experience with online purchasing. Those buyers will propbably be more likely to bid on an older 911. Than the buyer of a Boxster.
The point is that even within the same Brand the buyer of one model might be more willing to buy than the buyer of another model.
Its all becoming more complex with every passing day.

BUT DON"T TRADE IN YOUR CAR

[BuffaloBoxster]

One thing to consider, if the tax regulations are the same in your state as they are in NY, is that you don't pay tax on the value of the trade in. So trading in that $19k car actually nets you $20,567.50 at my local tax rates.

When I traded in my 14 month old RSX I got $18k for it. I probably could've moved it for $19k or maybe as much as 19.5k but it was obviously not worth the bother.

[Brucelee]

"I was referring to the the private owner selling price. Most consumers (I personally know) think of this price when they discuss the value of their used car they intend to sell. Most people I know who are not extremely wealthy and busy wouldn't ever trade in a car so they never refer to the retail trade-in value when they are figuring out the bluebook value."

This is a start as you now specify what BB value you are referring to.

"And I'm not saying his 1995 968 is worth $19K, Kelley BB says it is.
(since he's from LI I put in NY when I ran the calculator)"

KBB does not say that his car is worth 19K, only that the average price for a car of his type HAS BEEN 19K over time and distance. What he gets for it is what he gets for it, so it is a guide and KBB says that very clearly.

"Sure he might not find a buyer right away but the generally accepted guideline is the one put forward by the KBB. I'm not an economist so I can't say what the true woprth of a particular car is (whatever that means) but since most people don't know the auto business as well as dealers and at the same their is great distrust of auto sales industry, they turn to a third party to tell them what is "fair value" for a car."

I have no issue with KBB, use them all the time. However, they produce value guides and are careful to disclaim that in their literature.

"A set of Carrera 5 spoke wheels can be purchased any day on Ebay for $3,000 with tires. Yet no one ever bids. Yet the seller has determined that $3,000 is the fair market value. Porsche believes it to be higher. Does this mean the wheels are not worth $3,000 because they are relisted week after week without a buyer? I've always thought of worth to be the amount of money I can recoup if I decide to sell without using/wearing down the product."

If you can't sell the wheels at $3000 then by definition they are not worth $3000.

"At some point a consumer with the money to spend on a nice set of new Carrera 5 spokes will make the purchase and no one will say that since he bought wheels that were sitting around for months, that he was ripped off for paying $3,000."

It does not matter what other people say, if he paid $3K, they were worth it to him, no?



"I guess their are two perspectives on "worth" what the consumers believe and
what the auto industry believes. Unless you are buying a Saturn(if they still do that)."

Worth is determined by where the buyer and seller agree to a deal.

"By the way the car's I've sold for many friends, lend them to believe I do know what I'm talking about when I say how much their cars will bring in. Because so far with online auctions/ads its ALWAYS been higher than what either the KBB told them it was worth (to them as private sellers) or what the local used car lot guy offered them."

You are waffling here. The way you word your statement by definition makes your right. Can you sell it for PPT all the time or do you just beat the trade value?

I have done much data crunching of EBAY sold data on the Porsche Boxster and 911. It rare but possible to get PPT KBB on EBAY but most folks do not. In fact, most Porsches don't sell at all on EBAY. Of the 20% that do, most sell for around trade value and a few rare ones get to PPT.

That is also true for Corvettes, and most BMW models.

If you don't believe me spend an afternoon sorting the data. You will be surprised I believe.

"The ebay pricing for used car's often differs with the audience that car has.
Allot of conservative people don't feel comfortable buying a Boxster in an Ebay auction thus the bids come from a certain type of buyer, one that has greater trust in the internet than a more traditional buyer. An older 911 may have a different type of audience as well, one that regularly buys used parts from the internet and has much more experience with online purchasing. Those buyers will propbably be more likely to bid on an older 911. Than the buyer of a Boxster.
The point is that even within the same Brand the buyer of one model might be more willing to buy than the buyer of another model.
Its all becoming more complex with every passing day."

Candidily, unless an EBAY car is local and can be inspected by me personally, I would never buy a car over EBAY. The horror stories abound and buying this way is Russian Roulette. My neighbor bought a Jag on EBAY that he has inspected by a service far away. That car had been hit in every panel, as I showed him when he brought it over. The guy did not use a paint meter and got fooled by a nice repair job. Of course, the car won;t drive staight but hey, he got a great deal!



"BUT DON"T TRADE IN YOUR CAR "

Again, trade ins are fine for those who do not want to sell there car on their own and who understand that this will cost them some dough. I tell every prospect that every time I evaluate a trade. And I have not issue with direct sale. I make my money on selling my car, not taking advantage of a buyer. I can buy cars at auction all day long.

Different strokes for diff folks.