I read where the 2.7 motor blows up for no real reason...

Originally Posted by Brucelee

OK.

Lets see if we can bring this to an end.

Here is what we know.

The factory will never acknowledge design flaws yet these are well documented in pro-Porsche magazines like Panorama. I have NOT SEEN credible evidence to refute these two design issues. If so, please post.

There is clearly an RMS issue which MAY or MAY NOT be rectified in the latest batch of engines. This RMS issue is legend among both 996 and 986 owners. Some 987 owners have reported this issue also.

We DO KNOW that the factory has issue several new seals in response to the RMS issue. The last one, the Cayeene fix, MAY be working although my tech says it may not be also.

There is clearly an IMS problem that grenades the motor WHEN it appears. Number of these is unknown. This forum has reported a handful to date.

We do not have any factory data on ANY of this.

JD Powers surveys indicate that Porsches start out pleasing their owners and drop very quickly by the end of three years.

Any other things we can agree on?

Brucelee, you are obviously very successful and competent at selling Porsche products through your dealership. Yet, you know there is an intrinsic design flaw with the engines. How are you able to balance these two conflicting dynamics? What do you actually tell your customers, if they ask or not (about potential problems)?

Thanks.

[z12358]

Here's what we know:

1. RMS is more frequent than IMS but less severe.

2. IMS is less frequent than RMS but more severe.

3. We know nothing about HOW frequent either of them are.

4. ALL "issues" during the warranty years MUST be producing waranty claims small enough to allow Porsche to keep highest profit margins in the industry.

5. Beyond the warranty years, unless third-party Extended Warranties for Porsches are multiples of times more expensive than those for other brands, ALL "issues" in aggregate couldn't possibly be that much worse than what is expected from other brands.

The free market is the greatest aggregator of data and the best indicator of trends.

Rich, freedom -- learn from it.

Z.

[Sammy]

Originally Posted by z12358

Here's what we know:

1. RMS is more frequent than IMS but less severe.

2. IMS is less frequent than RMS but more severe.

3. We know nothing about HOW frequent either of them are.

4. ALL "issues" during the warranty years MUST be producing waranty claims small enough to allow Porsche to keep highest profit margins in the industry.

5. Beyond the warranty years, unless third-party Extended Warranties for Porsches are multiples of times more expensive than those for other brands, ALL "issues" in aggregate couldn't possibly be that much worse than what is expected from other brands.

The free market is the greatest aggregator of data and the best indicator of trends.

Rich, freedom -- learn from it.

Z.

Aww shoot... my bad Brucelee...

4) I don't think anyone has ever questioned this one. Profit margin is a function of a whole lot of things and is not some sort of magic indicator of quality. Porsche has a business case that works and no one is questioning this. Yes, we understand your point that if this was a widespread issue than Porsche would be out of business. If this was a widespread problem yes, they would not be profitable. If you looked at the profit margins for Ford when their big SUV's dominated the market you would be shocked! They made a killing in that market, but do you think its because they had some sort of magic formula for low warranty costs?

Once again, no one would argue that if this was a widespread problem that Porsche would not be profitable.

BTW - What is the profit margin that you are referring to? You keep talking about it, but what is the figure or range and where did you get it from?

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by z12358

Here's what we know:

1. RMS is more frequent than IMS but less severe.

2. IMS is less frequent than RMS but more severe.

3. We know nothing about HOW frequent either of them are.

4. ALL "issues" during the warranty years MUST be producing waranty claims small enough to allow Porsche to keep highest profit margins in the industry.

5. Beyond the warranty years, unless third-party Extended Warranties for Porsches are multiples of times more expensive than those for other brands, ALL "issues" in aggregate couldn't possibly be that much worse than what is expected from other brands.

The free market is the greatest aggregator of data and the best indicator of trends.

Rich, freedom -- learn from it.

Z.

You make several leaps of logic and do not account for time lags.

Also there is this little vexing issue.

Some warranty companies will simply not cover a Porsche of any kind. Why do you think that is?

Some will not cover Porsches over certain miles, yet they WILL cover Lexus for the same miles.

Why do you think that is?

[Brucelee]

BTW- you guys may be making too much out of the "highest margins in the industry data."

In fact, my service manager told me that "the warranty claims expense on the cars is VERY VERY high, but then again, so is the price they get."

[JackG]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

You make several leaps of logic and do not account for time lags.

Also there is this little vexing issue.

Some warranty companies will simply not cover a Porsche of any kind. Why do you think that is?

Some will not cover Porsches over certain miles, yet they WILL cover Lexus for the same miles.

Why do you think that is?

Using your questions to bolster your point requires more leaps of "logic", but to pursue that venue some more...

Do warranty companies exclude other cars? Maybe like Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus? If so, could it be because of high repair part and labor costs, higher than average repair frequency, or even typical car usage (track vs grocery store runs)? Maybe a mix of all the above?

Have many Lexus cars have you seen running a track event or autocross, in comparison to Porsches? Do you think that, on average, a day in the life of a Porsche and a Lexus is the same? How could that sway a warranty company's policy?

[Brucelee]

"Do warranty companies exclude other cars? Maybe like Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus? If so, could it be because of high repair part and labor costs, higher than average repair frequency, or even typical car usage (track vs grocery store runs)? Maybe a mix of all the above?"

Well, yes, I think you have sort of proved my point.

We have been saying all along that the Box is a very expensive car to maintain post warranty. Frequency of repair and avg cost of repair would about account for it.

We never said it was the ONLY car that fit this category.

Specific to Lexus, I would make the following wager.

Take a Lexus V8 and a Porsche flat six and run them the exact same way. I would put a grand up today that says that no matter what, that Lexus engine will last twice as long as the Porsche motor.

[rdancd816]

Originally Posted by Brucelee

"Do warranty companies exclude other cars? Maybe like Ferrari, Lambo, Lotus? If so, could it be because of high repair part and labor costs, higher than average repair frequency, or even typical car usage (track vs grocery store runs)? Maybe a mix of all the above?"

Well, yes, I think you have sort of proved my point.

We have been saying all along that the Box is a very expensive car to maintain post warranty. Frequency of repair and avg cost of repair would about account for it.

We never said it was the ONLY car that fit this category.

Specific to Lexus, I would make the following wager.

Take a Lexus V8 and a Porsche flat six and run them the exact same way. I would put a grand up today that says that no matter what, that Lexus engine will last twice as long as the Porsche motor.

I think you are right on the money, I owned a Lexus 300 and put 150K on it with nothing more than scheduled maintanence. No expensive surprises. My Boxter is now 10 years old and it is quite an expensive proposition. I have not had an engine failure or had to deal with an RMS repair but it soaks up a couple hundred on average each month for small, annoying fixes. Mine is one of those extremely low miles cars that can be problematic as it was never driven properly (17,000). I still love the vehicle but am a little surprized by all the flaws and anticipated repairs. (RMS, Converible top cable mechanism, Coolant Tank, Suspension issues, Airbag light and harnesses, etc.) Being a first time Porsche owner whose car was PPI'd I am a bit dissappointed in the lack of the "bulletproof" quality I expected in a car like this. I realize the car is now 10 years old but I have had less issues with an old '86 Fiero GT I own for fun. It's got 86,000 on it and never breaks. No "catches on fire" comments please, Pontiac fixed that problem via recall for free. Anyway I would still not hesitate to buy a good, clean '97 but would advise anyone in that market to be prepared!

[Brucelee]

Now on the NEWER side of the ledger, here is a post from a concurrent thread:

[B]Hi all,

Been really busy lately and haven't been following the forum. Thought i'd report back on my car.

Replaced my rear tires at 18,800 miles. Also got my third tranny replaced at 18,800 miles under warranty. This is going to be a sticking point with me and Porsche...

At 20,098 I put the car in for service. Got the minor maintenance done and replaced the brakes, which were below 10%.

A brake job consists of pads, rotors and parts. $695. Minor maintenance is something in the $200+ range. This is all at Pioneer Centres, San Diego.

Luckily I had a 15% off coupon that they'd sent me for both jobs. Grand total was therefore $963.43.

At the same time I also reported a bit of funny handling and a clunky sound from the rear passenger side. We surmised that it might be a sway bar end link, which is apparently a common mode of failure for these cars.

When I came to pick up my car, I was informed that my right rear shock needed to be replaced. It's a PASM shock too.

Hmm... ditch the car or extended warranty? I love the way it looks and drives, but if major parts keep dying, well, that's no good...
__________________
2005 Seal Grey Boxster S
987 Amberectomy

[Brucelee]

Originally Posted by bmussatti

Brucelee, you are obviously very successful and competent at selling Porsche products through your dealership. Yet, you know there is an intrinsic design flaw with the engines. How are you able to balance these two conflicting dynamics? What do you actually tell your customers, if they ask or not (about potential problems)?

Thanks.

Good point, although I don't have the dealership anymore.

I used to be very candid with my buyers about the RMS issue and advise them to buy a warranty IF that kind of expense bothered them. I did not sell warranties but could refer them to someone who did.

Usually, I knew if any of my cars had had an RMS repair and I would advise buyers of this also. Some had several RMS replacments by the way.

I decided to close the dealership around the time that the IMS came to my attention but one had nothing to do with the other.

I would advise anyone looking at a used Box out of warranty to at least evaluate an aftermarket warranty.