Rear suspension problem and the ROW M030 European suspension as a solution - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

gwoodburn · 10-09-2010, 01:16 PM

I was wondering for everyone that has the ROW M030 suspension installed, does anyone have a before and after fender height measurement and pics?

Before I bought my 30 S, I knew it was in a rear end collision about 2 yrs prior, but I didn't know what the extent of damage really was (carfax sucks). Being that the previous owner drove it for another 2 years and over 20,000mi, i figured it wasn't too serious. When I went in for an alignment after I bought it, they said I have something going on in my rear suspension that is causing the toe to go out when they adjust the camber. Basically, the shop couldn't adjust the camber any less than -1.5 degrees on the rear passenger side or the toe starts going out. They also said after looking at everything that they suspect the shock could be bent slightly causing the problem. I know that the camber and toe are "married" so to speak because the boxster doesn't have adjustable toe control arms, but I should be able to get more than -1.5 degrees if I wanted without the toe going out. So instead of buying 2 new rear shocks, which would be about half the cost of the ROW kit, I was thinking of upgrading the whole suspension and hopefully getting a little bit of a drop out of it.

Either way, I know that from everything that I have read, the ROW kit would be an excellent upgrade, but I wanted to know how much drop it actually gives. Everything i have read says 20mm up front and 10mm in the rear, but with such a slight drop, is it really noticeable?

Also, does anyone else have any other ideas about what could be causing the camber and toe adjustment problem?

gwoodburn · 10-21-2010, 05:50 AM

bump... anyone have an opinion on what to do?

blue2000s · 10-21-2010, 06:15 AM

Are they trying to align to the ROW M030 spec? There is one from Porsche specifically for this set-up. I don't have it handy or I'd share it with you. You can get it from the dealer, I did.

The drop Porsche states is actually about right. I could tell my car was lower, but it's still completely realistic for street use. There are a couple of other 986s in my parking lot, one older and one newer and you can tell my car is lower than theirs.

gwoodburn · 10-21-2010, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue2000s

Are they trying to align to the ROW M030 spec? There is one from Porsche specifically for this set-up. I don't have it handy or I'd share it with you. You can get it from the dealer, I did.

The drop Porsche states is actually about right. I could tell my car was lower, but it's still completely realistic for street use. There are a couple of other 986s in my parking lot, one older and one newer and you can tell my car is lower than theirs.

They are not trying to align to ROW specs. They can tell there is an issue somewhere because they cannot adjust the camber any less than 1.5 degrees on the rear passenger side without the toe going out. They are able to do it on the drivers' side however. Which leads them to think there is something up with the shock b/c everything else (i.e. the control arms, track arms, etc) looks fine.

Technically, the cars' alignment is within spec, so it isn't a huge problem right now. I am really just trying to figure out what could cause this inability to adjust the camber any further. They suggested the shock may be slightly bent up top so I thought it might be a good time for the ROW upgrade and hopefully fix the alignment problem while getting a little drop out of it.

Good to know that there is actually a noticeable drop in the ROW setup. It is really hard to tell from the few internet pics I found and I haven't seen actual fender height measurements.

yelojkt · 10-21-2010, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwoodburn

So instead of buying 2 new rear shocks, which would be about half the cost of the ROW kit, I was thinking of upgrading the whole suspension and hopefully getting a little bit of a drop out of it.

If you do not want to get to radical with your suspension than I think this is a wise corse for you to follow. Once you get the new suspension on if you are still having trouble with the rear corner than take it to a body shop and have them check your chassis to see if it is out of shape. You can also buy adjustable toe links to get you where you want to go.

gwoodburn · 10-21-2010, 07:46 AM

Yup, thought of the toe control links. Just didn't want to have to buy something else if I didn't have to and would rather not use it as a "band-aid" to get the alignment right. I would rather know the source of the problem and fix that. If the ROW kit doesn't fix it, then your suggestion of getting a body shop to look at it is probably what I'll try next. If that doesn't work, then I'd probably go with the adjustable toe arms. Thanks for the suggestions!!!

Cloudsurfer · 10-21-2010, 06:41 PM

The RoW M030 is about the best you can get for a livable street car. You will want the adjustable toe links.

blue2000s · 10-21-2010, 07:11 PM

OK, I pulled up the ROW spec sheet.

Front Camber per side: -0*45' to 0*15'
Front Toe per side: 0*0' to 0*05'
Front cross camber: -0*20' to 0*20'
Front total toe: 0*00' to 0*10'

Rear Camber per side: -2*00' to -1*00'
Rear Toe per side: 0*0' to 0*10'
Rear cross camber: -0*20' to 0*20'
Rear total toe: -0*10' to 0*10'

You definitely shouldn't need any additional adjustable links to meet this spec. If you do, something is wrong.

harryrcb · 10-21-2010, 07:12 PM

I just purchased a ROW kit from Suncoast last week for a friend and suncoast informed me that the kit will no longer be available from Porsche and that he sold me the last kit, so if you plan on doing that I suggest you don't waist any time and see if you can still get one.
I installed mine about a year ago and when I first put it on it appeared as if it did not drop much at all but in about a week it got lower to just over 1"
Handling improve considerably but its still street friendly.
as far as something being bent in the rear, it is certainly possible after a collision. the only way I know that you can find out for sure take it to a Porsche body shop and have them put it on their frame jig, they will be able to tell you how far off everything is.
Good luck with everything. BTW carfax does suck, I bought a Boxster with a clean report but after getting it up on the lift found out it had damage as well.

Jaxonalden · 10-21-2010, 07:37 PM

Carfax only reports whats turned into dealerships (servicing), DMV (registration) and insurance claims. If you get in a fender bender and not claim it and fix it yourself that of course will not be on a Carfax report.

Garage in, garbage out. The buyer is responsible for a full and detailed inspection before money changes hands.

gwoodburn · 10-22-2010, 06:21 AM

[QUOTE=harryrcb]I just purchased a ROW kit from Suncoast last week for a friend and suncoast informed me that the kit will no longer be available from Porsche and that he sold me the last kit, so if you plan on doing that I suggest you don't waist any time and see if you can still get one.
I installed mine about a year ago and when I first put it on it appeared as if it did not drop much at all but in about a week it got lower to just over 1"
Handling improve considerably but its still street friendly.
as far as something being bent in the rear, it is certainly possible after a collision. the only way I know that you can find out for sure take it to a Porsche body shop and have them put it on their frame jig, they will be able to tell you how far off everything is.
Good luck with everything. BTW carfax does suck, I bought a Boxster with a clean report but after getting it up on the lift found out it had damage as well.[/QUOTE

Suncoast told me this as well when I talked to them a few months ago. I was probably going to pick it up from design911 out of the UK. After shipping they actually sell it cheaper than suncoast!

So If I am unable to get this kit, what would be the next best option for a daily driver? Also, are the sway bars with the ROW kit any different than the ones on my 03 S?

harryrcb · 10-23-2010, 04:19 PM

Suncoast told me this as well when I talked to them a few months ago. I was probably going to pick it up from design911 out of the UK. After shipping they actually sell it cheaper than suncoast!

So If I am unable to get this kit, what would be the next best option for a daily driver? Also, are the sway bars with the ROW kit any different than the ones on my 03 S?[/QUOTE]

there really is no "street" substitute and YES the swaybars are bigger. It is my believe though unconfirmed that Porsche is only getting rid of the "kit" you will still be able to buy the individual components, trouble is, it will cost almost twice as much. I need to write the part numbers down from the individual componenets on the kit I'm installing on my friends car and post them, give me a couple of days .
the only other suspension are the ps10 but I think they are a little harsch for the road, all depends on how you like it.
Harry

JettaGLi16v · 10-24-2010, 11:53 AM

For what it's worth,
My alignment guy has an old school tool he says can correct this issue.

He is a complete alignment badass...
Guy does nothing but alignments, for over 30 years,
and uses no electric tools:
Bubble camber gauge,
"tire-scuff wear gauge"
and many trips around the block,
but he is always 100% on.

On my last trip, (first trip in the Box)
we had a little bit more toe in on the left than the right. Not much, just an RCH or so...
His reasons for this were as follows:
1) accident (never looked at the carfax, I don't care)
2) maybe the struts were not installed dead nuts even? I am not sure if this is possible, but I do know the struts just kind of clamp in to the bearing carrier, and maybe there is some slop there?

He had a really big, really heavy tool that bolts on to the wheel studs,
and allows fine adjustments by actually bending the (strut / bearing carrier / etc...)
and he offered to me that he can bring anything into alignment, regardless of what happened.

He told me this tool is older than me (30 yrs), but you know they dont build them like they used to.

just an idea.
-Brad

HB. · 12-25-2010, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harryrcb

I just purchased a ROW kit from Suncoast last week for a friend and suncoast informed me that the kit will no longer be available from Porsche and that he sold me the last kit

I'm not sure what the Suncoast rep was talking about, I ordered my kit last week, which just arrived yesterday! I can't wait to have the kit installed, but it won't be until after the holidays before it gets done.

jwade · 12-25-2010, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gwoodburn

I was wondering for everyone that has the ROW M030 suspension installed, does anyone have a before and after fender height measurement and pics?

Before I bought my 30 S, I knew it was in a rear end collision about 2 yrs prior, but I didn't know what the extent of damage really was (carfax sucks). Being that the previous owner drove it for another 2 years and over 20,000mi, i figured it wasn't too serious. When I went in for an alignment after I bought it, they said I have something going on in my rear suspension that is causing the toe to go out when they adjust the camber. Basically, the shop couldn't adjust the camber any less than -1.5 degrees on the rear passenger side or the toe starts going out. They also said after looking at everything that they suspect the shock could be bent slightly causing the problem. I know that the camber and toe are "married" so to speak because the boxster doesn't have adjustable toe control arms, but I should be able to get more than -1.5 degrees if I wanted without the toe going out. So instead of buying 2 new rear shocks, which would be about half the cost of the ROW kit, I was thinking of upgrading the whole suspension and hopefully getting a little bit of a drop out of it.

Either way, I know that from everything that I have read, the ROW kit would be an excellent upgrade, but I wanted to know how much drop it actually gives. Everything i have read says 20mm up front and 10mm in the rear, but with such a slight drop, is it really noticeable?

Also, does anyone else have any other ideas about what could be causing the camber and toe adjustment problem?

The Tequipment RoW suspension kit is fantastic! This is what yours would look like with the kit on. It does NOT drop the car crazy low, but about 3/8" in the rear and a hair over 3/4" in the front.

The handling though is what it should have come like from the factory. It's a night and day experience from the USA standard suspension.

I ordered mine from Design 911 in the Uk and the service / delivery was exceptional!

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[/IMG]http://986forum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=13511&stc=1[IMG]

autodoctor911 · 12-28-2010, 07:30 AM

There are a few possible causes.
1. Strut is benttoward positive camber, ausing the control arm to have to be adjusted too far outward in order to achieve -1.5*, in which case you should be able to see that the bolt head on the control arm inner bushing is toward the outside. to onfirm though, measure the gap between the rim and the strut on each side and compare.
2. the rear suspension bracjets have shifted slightly on thebody. look for evidence(witness marksaround where they attatch.
3. the body is bent. in this case, you need a frame shop with real attention to detail, because right now, it will align to spec, so most would not see anything wrong.
4. the ride height is slightly off right now. this id measured from the ground to thereinforcement strut that goes diagonally.
nothing is wrong. I have had almost new Porsches with similiar issues, with no prior damage.
It can usually be remedied by loosening ever thing and shifting it and retightened.

At any rate though, adjustable toe links make aligning the tear a lot easirritation, and on your case, I doubt anything is bent enough to worry about
I am going to order the kit for mine too, just as a upgrade. how much are y'all paying for the kit?