SwayBar discussion: Anyone go from M030 to GT3/Tarett?

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by insite

i run the GT3 up front w/ H&R in back. the H&R is STIFF. i wish it had a couple more settings; there are only two holes on each side.

i run the GT3 bar full soft up front for both street & track. i run the rear sway full soft on the street & i stiffen ONE SIDE by one hole for the track. the car is VERY neutral here w/ my setup.
i've tried full stiff at the track and it was way too tail happy. not enough power to keep the rear end planted at this setting for me.

Insite; by adjusting only one side, meaning that you now have three settings on the H&R bar.

However, doesn't this means that one side will be stiffer than the other (by having a longer arm)..? Does the car feels the same on the L and R turns?
.

[jaykay]

For those of you have adjustable rear sway(roll) bars how does the feel of the car change as you gradually stiffen the setting.......too much weight transfer to the outside wheel overloading the available traction? Correcting for this means more throttle once your in a slide?

[Johnny Danger]

Following the installation of a custom set of coilovers designed by 9FF (essentially a modified pss-9 kit to their specs), I added the H&R front and rear sways bars. After a little bit of back and forth testing, I chose to leave the rear sway at its stiffest setting. How this compares to other set-ups like the GT3 or ROW is difficult to know. There are many forum members who have far more experience with tracking their vehicle's than I do. I will say however, above and beyond the obvious difference the pss-9's made, the addition of the H&R sways was a vast improvement over the oem set-up.

[insite]

Originally Posted by jaykay

For those of you have adjustable rear sway(roll) bars how does the feel of the car change as you gradually stiffen the setting.......too much weight transfer to the outside wheel overloading the available traction? Correcting for this means more throttle once your in a slide?

front vs. rear is very different. as you add bar up front, the handling sharpens a little & the car feels more stable in high speed corners. too much & it starts to plow; too little & it feels like it won't really turn in. i find a good setting for mine & pretty much leave it there.

now the rear, that's a different story for me. it makes ALL the difference. no rear bar makes the car understeer a lot; it feels wet noodley. add some rear bar though, and the car really starts to pivot. in fact, the biggest simple difference you can make to a box is to swap out the rear bar; it's undersized from the factory to promote understeer. the base M030 bar is lots of bang for the buck.

rear bar seems to make the car WANT too turn. too much & it can get a little darty, and ultimately the rear will step out too frequently in corners. adding throttle helps add weight to the rear & restore grip. 'loose is fast' because the remedy here is to add throttle rather than to lift. in my car, if i add too much sway, i get to the point where i'm full throttle, the rear continues to step out & i have to correct w/ steering input. if i had a tad more power or grip, i could probably go full stiff on my rear bar at the track. on slicks, it's no problem. it can get hard w/ a lot of rear bar to put the power down because of inside wheel spin. if you have a diff, this is a non-issue.

[Stroked & Blown]

This is a great discussion.
Thanks, insite, for all the...erm....insight.

Pricing wise, the H&R rear + djustable end links comes out about the same as the Tarett rear setup w/ endlinks included. The only benefit is that you could start with the stock endlinks and add adjustables later.

I think I am just going to bite the bullet and go for the Tarett. Better option at a similar price.

[insite]

Originally Posted by Stroked & Blown

This is a great discussion.
Thanks, insite, for all the...erm....insight.

Pricing wise, the H&R rear + djustable end links comes out about the same as the Tarett rear setup w/ endlinks included. The only benefit is that you could start with the stock endlinks and add adjustables later.

I think I am just going to bite the bullet and go for the Tarett. Better option at a similar price.

the tarret certainly provides a bit more flexability. if anyone needs a cheaper drop link solution, PM me.

[Stroked & Blown]

Is there a way to order the tarett bar without the endlinks? They don't list it separately on their site.

[insite]

Originally Posted by Gilles

Insite; by adjusting only one side, meaning that you now have three settings on the H&R bar.

However, doesn't this means that one side will be stiffer than the other (by having a longer arm)..? Does the car feels the same on the L and R turns?
.

gilles -

the sway bars are not fixed at the center of the car, meaning that when you twist one side, it's countered by the other side. this means that the total torque on the bar = force * (lever arm 1 + lever arm 2) and is the same from side to side. there is no difference between a left turn or a right turn in this respect. just make sure if you do this that you have adjustable sway bar links so you can dial out any pre-load resulting from uneven arm lengths.

[Gilles]

Originally Posted by insite

gilles -

the sway bars are not fixed at the center of the car, meaning that when you twist one side, it's countered by the other side. this means that the total torque on the bar = force * (lever arm 1 + lever arm 2) and is the same from side to side. there is no difference between a left turn or a right turn in this respect. just make sure if you do this that you have adjustable sway bar links so you can dial out any pre-load resulting from uneven arm lengths.

Insite;
An interesting topic indeed.. unfortunately I don't have adjustable drop links, I am using the OEM links along with both of the H&R bars and the KW-V3 coilovers.

I like using the stiff setting on the rear bar to help you rotate the car quicker on a tight track, but on a longer track I use the softer rear setting to avoid wheel spin on the inside rear (no LSD either).

I am planning to eventually get the adjustable drop links AND also the adjustable toe links for the rear axle to have the proper toe settings, (the ones that also help you compensate for bump steer) however buying both the drop and toe links is kind of pricey.

Thereafter, a Guard clutch type LSD and a LWFW will follow, it's really easy, all I need is cash...
..ha!

[chaudanova]

Insite, thanks for the feedback and information...

Curious, have you played with the Tarett rear bar at all, or any feedback between that versus the H&R rear?

Also, regarding the different side settings. I definitely learned something today regarding the overall torque on the bars as you discussed. Theoretically, assuming a bar had an even split spread between settings, for example on a 5-setting bar..would running the L/R sides on a middle setting then be the same overall as running one side on full soft, and one side on full stiff? Just curious about the science behind it all.

[chaudanova]

On a side note, if anyone is interested in a rear base M030 19.6mm bar, I have one available.

[sb01box]

Originally Posted by chaudanova

Insite, thanks for the feedback and information...

Curious, have you played with the Tarett rear bar at all, or any feedback between that versus the H&R rear?

Also, regarding the different side settings. I definitely learned something today regarding the overall torque on the bars as you discussed. Theoretically, assuming a bar had an even split spread between settings, for example on a 5-setting bar..would running the L/R sides on a middle setting then be the same overall as running one side on full soft, and one side on full stiff? Just curious about the science behind it all.

I think if you examined the suspension as one side moving up and down while the other side is held, then the difference in the attachment point changes the piviting point as thus the force per angle change in the sway is different.

another way to look at it is if you can remove the springs, then moving one side up and down will induce different vertical motion on the other side. not good.

as for figure of merit on sway bars, I called Tarett and they sent me a table comparing GT3 front and Tarett back versus standard, standard S, M030 and m030 S sway bars as function of drop link attachment points .

[jaykay]

Thanks for the description insite....what I am getting is that the more roll control you have the more weight goes to the outside wheel thus using more and more of the available traction resulting in oversteer.....not sure I understand how throttle will control this as you over load the outside rear more as the weight transfers back althought this common knowledge

[Stroked & Blown]

Originally Posted by sb01box

as for figure of merit on sway bars, I called Tarett and they sent me a table comparing GT3 front and Tarett back versus standard, standard S, M030 and m030 S sway bars as function of drop link attachment points .

Can you post that table here?

[stephen wilson]

There's a fine line between too much power and too little! It also depends on how much torque is available at the rear tires, first gear will have lots, 4th, not so much.

Applying power shifts weight to the rear, adding grip. But nothing is free, acceleration reduces grip available for cornering (lateral acceleration), too much can create "power oversteer". Conversely, if you lift off of the throttle, or apply the brakes, weight (and grip) will shift to the front tires, also causing oversteer.

So, if you get loose while cornering, either maintain your throttle position and counter-steer to correct, or if needed reduce power slightly while still maintaining positive throttle.