Kerblammo! The motor is rubble. (Raby! Read this) - 986 Forum - The Community for Porsche Boxster & Cayman Owners

insite · 03-24-2009, 07:50 AM

well, it finally happened. i was in an 80mph left hand sweeper and the motor sort of lost compression and croaked. i coasted to a stop & attempted to fire it back up; it turned over twice and locked up.

i heard NO metallic sounds, there was NO smoke, the car dumped NO fluid, there was NO rod knock, there is NO evidence of metal shavings on the dipstic & NO water in the oil. put it in 5th, pushed it forward, dumped the clutch....LOCKED. put it in 5th, pushed it backward, dumped the clutch.....LOCKED. she's a goner for sure.

anyone have any idea as to what the failure mode could be? the car's a '99 and there were 139,500 miles on the motor.

she lived a long and happy life! at least she died on the track, doing something she loved, rather than sitting in traffic on I-285.....

Bladecutter · 03-24-2009, 07:52 AM

If you have her home, pull the spark plugs, and see what they tell you.

BC.

insite · 03-24-2009, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bladecutter

If you have her home, pull the spark plugs, and see what they tell you.

probably won't get a chance to do that until i pull the motor. considering the most common failure modes for this motor, i found it strange that it was so anti-climatic. at least i probably have a rebuildable core instead of a worthless heap of metal.

Boxtaboy · 03-24-2009, 09:19 AM

Sorry to hear. I'm no mechanic, so excuse me if I'm way off base here, but if you didn't hear any bad mechanical noises and no oil leaked out/no smoke, then could it be as simple as a failed fuel pump or other more minor issue?

insite · 03-24-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxtaboy

Sorry to hear. I'm no mechanic, so excuse me if I'm way off base here, but if you didn't hear any bad mechanical noises and no oil leaked out/no smoke, then could it be as simple as a failed fuel pump or other more minor issue?

i'd love that! actually, in those cases, the motor would be able to rotate. we put the car in gear, pushed it up to speed, and dumped the clutch. if the motor could rotate, the rear wheels would spin. they did not; they simply skidded to a halt. this indicates seizure.

Boxtaboy · 03-24-2009, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insite

i'd love that! actually, in those cases, the motor would be able to rotate. we put the car in gear, pushed it up to speed, and dumped the clutch. if the motor could rotate, the rear wheels would spin. they did not; they simply skidded to a halt. this indicates seizure.

Oh man, sorry to hear. Well, like you said, at least it died on the track, and you got over 100K miles out of it. Not bad actually. You can now throw in a used 3.4L, and have even more fun!

spine911 · 03-24-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insite

i'd love that! actually, in those cases, the motor would be able to rotate. we put the car in gear, pushed it up to speed, and dumped the clutch. if the motor could rotate, the rear wheels would spin. they did not; they simply skidded to a halt. this indicates seizure.

UNFORTUNATELY, VERY TRUE- this is one absolute/final test...I had to learn this (also) the hard way a couple years ago when my VW decided to call it quits.

Goodluck....it's just a car (and money).

Jake Raby · 03-25-2009, 05:49 PM

Considering that we only started the program 5 years ago and didn't sell the first engine until 16 months ago we don't have data thats as old as the M96 it's self... But guess what, neither does anyone else!

It's simple... We are applying as much "Overkill Engineering" as possible by applying proven technology along with classic hotrodding and hand assembly to create an engine that just plain works.

The Nikisil technology used for the cylinders is exactly what was used by Porsche for 3 decades in the 911 engine, the same technology that was not used by Porsche in the M96 due to extreme expense.. Its overkill, but it just plain works, has little friction and hardly any wear... The IMS is the same way, so are all the other parts we have developed and tested.. When we do cylinder head preparation we don't use OE valves, we use a valve thats way more extreme duty and has been in service under my roof for over a decade without a single failure, they don't even fail when they should.... Why??? Because as a custom unit they only cost 3 bucks a piece more than a Porsche valve and I have the ability to have them made exactly as I want them...

Yes, we have data... Do some research on my background and you'll see that data and product development is my specialty and that I won't allow my name to be associated with anything that isn't proven.... Thats why I spent over 4 years researching and designing components before I sold the first engine.

The only way the skeptics will be satisfied that our product is superior is the application of the engines on the street and on the track along with the positive testimonials that we gain from each build.. I'll be the first to tell anyone that our program is not "one size fits all" and isn't for everyone, in fact if a potential client has a single doubt that we can't exceed the factory, I will not work with them... Luckily we have enough people who appreciate what we have created and want to share it with us bad enough to keep the program growing at a VERY fast pace... If nothing else we offer more performance than the factory can offer and for that one reason we move over half of our engines, despite the added reliability and longevity- people that want unlimited power potential don't care about that generally..

All that said, we expect some skepticism and doubt and you can bet your last dollar that we are putting every bit of enthusiasm and intensity possible into developing a program to make the M96 what it should have been from the factory. This is being done through old fashioned hard work, application and just plain expenditure.

In a decade we'll see how the cards are stacked.. We are in this for the long haul and already Porsche Dealerships are having US consult their technicians that are doing internal M96 engine work for the first time... Today doesn't matter, tomorrow does... I have a very strong aircooled business that has footed the bill for all the M96 endeavors and that side of the house is also growing, even with an economy in such disrepair... You won't find other companies adding to their work force and 4,000 square foot additions to their facility right now... I did.

To say the least I don't mind working toward a goal and proving myself and what I design and create over a decade or more... I have done it before and the second time is a hell of a lot more fun.

In closing I"ll say that gathering data concerning reliability is near impossible to do accurately... Thats because its hard to control all the variables that play into a longevity equation. I gather data all day everyday and under this roof are two engine dynos, a chassis dyno and over 100 channels of combined data acquisition capability.. And most importantly an insane maniac behind it all that doesn't mind an 18 hour work day, broken parts and failure on more occasions than success- thats reality in my world.

Lil bastard · 03-25-2009, 08:30 PM

@ Jake:

Here's hoping that all that genius, experience, facility and dedication can be directed at Price Point.

It's difficult (for me anyway) to consider your rebuild (especially pro-actively) when it's cost exceeds the current market value of the car.

spine911 · 03-25-2009, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil bastard

@ Jake:

Here's hoping that all that genius, experience, facility and dedication can be directed at Price Point.

It's difficult (for me anyway) to consider your rebuild (especially pro-actively) when it's cost exceeds the current market value of the car.

Very well stated, I completely agree with you on this.

Jake Raby · 03-24-2009, 01:33 PM

Based on the limited amount of preliminary information I'd say this one broke a rod bolt. That would explain no rod knock and immediate failure.

I'd be happy to give you a free observation on what has occurred... I am only 75 miles away :-)

Looks like it's time for my version

(I also have one good used 2.5)

Sorry to hear, but as always I would like to understand which mode of failure you have experienced.. You didn't by chance have the BK deep sump did you?

mikefocke · 03-24-2009, 01:42 PM

http://mike.focke.googlepages.com/sowhatcanyoudoiftheengineblows%3F

Let me know if you discover any other options.

Topless · 03-24-2009, 02:58 PM

Well done insite! She died on the battlefield... A good death. Sorry it had to happen now but I suspect added displacement is in your future. So far I agree with Jake. Probably a rod shoved in where it doesn't belong and jamming the crank solid. You have my condolences. Do keep us posted with what you find.

angman · 03-24-2009, 03:11 PM

Sorry to hear about the misfortune, but its probably a blessing in disguise. You treated that car well and its wonderful to know that it died on the track. Good luck with whatever you plan to do in the future (I vote for 3.4).

Jake Raby · 06-17-2009, 02:28 PM

Grant,
What would REALLY kill the 914 crowd would be if I used you and the lack of "experience" you have to build the very first engine kit...

"Grant the Guinea pig, if Grant can do it anyone can!"

I have 11 years of experience with designing easy to assemble, proven engine kit packages and then selling them to first timers to assemble themselves.. No problem, hell we even provide ALL the hand tools for the entire job if someone doesn't have them..

And a step by step DVD for you to make it happen... and a compatibility list of proven subsystems and components, right down to an application specific proven ECU flash.

Thats how far we are taking this.

Jake Raby · 03-25-2009, 07:04 AM

Thus far broken rod bolts are the only mode of failure that happens often on the track to the M96 engines... (not including failures induced by oil starvation)
An engine failing on the track is justifiable, but the hunddreds that are failing while being driven 55 MPH is whats not acceptable.

I would be happy to chat on the phone and try to offer a better explanation for what happened.. A rod bolt is still my number 1 hypothesis on this MOF.

03-25-2009, 10:30 AM

I may be in the minority here, but I say a sports car, that has seen track time, that is 10 years old, with over 139,000 miles.....you got your money's worth.

Hope you get up and running again soon!

Jaxonalden · 03-25-2009, 11:52 AM

Insite,

Looking for a replacement? How about a 3.4 out of an '07 Cayman? Here in OKC we have a Porsche dismantler, Oklahoman Foreign, and he currently has a 3.4 on EBay for a buy-it-now price of $7,500...8,900 miles on the clock!!

Can you smell what the Box is cookin'?

insite · 03-25-2009, 12:04 PM

thanks for all the replies! probably look to a 3.4L or a raby rebuild or such; got to weigh all of the options. new cayman 3.4L will not work b/c of CAN bus issues.

jake - we'll be in touch! i heard you do thirty years / no interest. ;-)

Brucelee · 06-09-2009, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmussatti

I may be in the minority here, but I say a sports car, that has seen track time, that is 10 years old, with over 139,000 miles.....you got your money's worth.

Hope you get up and running again soon!

I would agree with that. My guess is that your crankshaft bearings siezed, which might have simply stopped everything else in mid stream.

Good luck on the new engine if that is what you choose to do!