Anyone have a Raby rebuild yet?
I have been checking their site out and they are rebuilding and upgrading 2.5, 2.7, 3.2 and 3.4 M96 engines.
Does anyone in here have one of there engines? They say they can safely increase bore on the 2.5 and 2.7, increasing them to 2.7 and 2.9 respectively. With a good valve job, bore increase and ECU reprogramming they claim 260+hp with the 2.5 (bumped to 2.7). I would assume a few more hp with the 2.9. Here is my thoughts on this. I think the ugraded and rebuilt Raby engines will last longer and run very strong, but they will not increase the value of your Boxster. A 3.4l swap will cost about the same, have a few more ponies and will increase the value of your car, allowing some return on investment of the engine swap cost if you sell it. But I don't think the 3.4 will be anymore reliable than the 2.5 or 2.7 you took out the the car. Anyone that has had them rebuild their engine please give me your thoughts, even if it was for a competition vehicle. I'd like to know your thoughts on dealing with Raby and how long it took to get the engine built. Sean :cheers: |
I don't even think Jack has more than one of each rebuilt just yet. Sounded to me like they were still in the last stages of getting the program together.
I do not think the intention was to increase the value of boxsters, but simply to provided a needed service. The new spec boxster series will need a supplier like this too. |
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I'm just giving my opinion and would like to hear other peoples opinions and experiences with swaps, value, rebuilds and such. I think this subject is very hot in the 986 community as most of our cars are getting up there in miles and or have had engine problems. |
I'd be very interested to hear from someone who winds up with one of these in their car.
Patrick |
I stumbled upon this post and figured I'd clarify a few points on the program we have developed.
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The idea behind the project was to solve the major issues with the Boxster and 996 engine while offering the opportunity to actually rebuild engines, by making the procedures more known and by creating our own assembly tools that are easy to use and available for purchase. Quote:
No engines have been delivered to thus far, but several are in the works as we are working to build an inventory of engines and components to mee projected future demands. Quote:
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We get a fair amount of calls from owners with factory re-man engines that have had a failure, some in less than 10K miles, but it seems the majority occur around 30K. Quote:
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Three years ago I was approached by Charles from LNE Engineering to assist him with the development of the 986/87 and 996/97 engines. I had been prodded by many folks to apply my experience with engine and component design with other engines into the later model Porsche engines and finally I decided to open a division to specialize in this, I would head this division. We have now solved most all the general Boxster and 996 component issues and have a product that we feel is ready to be applied to the market. We will continue to hone the processes and components as evolution and experience is further gained. Thats a little about me/ us and the program. More can be found on our websites as we are more well known in the aircooled circles than anywhere else. I'll now address some comments made by other posters in this thread: Quote:
I believe that over time our finished product will become synonomous with effectiveness in the Boxster world as more cars are equipped with our engines and components. At that point, more than likely cars equipped with these engines **may** be worth more coin. Quote:
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We will be offering "rebuilt" engines that are fully dyno tuned and upgraded, but thats more the case initially as we need more and more experience to learn the engines inside and out. The ultimate goal is the creation of a program that will provide open source support to the enthusiast and shop alike and will allow shops to attain components, tools and even training on using these items when creating a Boxster or 996 performance engine. So, just to clarify, we have started the first US based engine alternative for the 986/97 and 996/97, and we have no intention to compete with Porsche or engine swaps. We feel that there is a significant market for our alternative engine program, especially as the cars become older and are used more in amateur racing venues that would not accomodate the 3.4 conversion. Guyss wanting even more power than the 3.4 can provide would also be interested in the higher echelon of our offerings, using boost specific components and application. The goal was to provide an option. That option would be a true alternative to paying Porsche for a re-man engine. And we looked into the future to the time when Porsche will no longer offer a re-man engine for the early cars, leaving thousands of owners without any options for engine repair. The tentative date fior this is 2011, so we will be well prepared for the day, when it comes. Quote:
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So, thats pretty much sums it up.. The program is going strong already, and with our original businesses paying the bills we were able to afford the development of this program without having to "sell" engines to clients as "guinea pigs". We have our own test vehicle (98 Boxster) and have used it to apply concepts and gather data. We are currently working on both single and twin Turbo application specific engine internals as well as the "kit" of components that will compliment these into complete packages. In the aircooled world our team has been very effective, doing more R&D and true development than anyone else over the past decade. We plan to develop the Boxster and 996/97 engines with the same level of dedication and philosophies and we are certain that we'll be successful. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss our program. Jake Raby, President, Flat 6 Innovations www.flat6innovations.com FWIW- I have sent several messages to the admin about advertising here on the forums, so I hope the post doesn't "ruffle any feathers". If a member of the admin will please contact me I'll gladly begin advertising!! |
Thanks for dropping in Jack. Nothing like hearing from the proverbial horses mouth
I've been following the discussions about this on the spec boxster forum, if it all works out we will be very fortunate to have this resource available to us. |
Thanks for the welcome...
The Boxster following has been very inviting to the program thus far because there is so much untapped potential with the vehicles, if the engine just had some alternatives. Its been a real challenge to get as far as we have, but thats just part of the learning curve and more than likely is the reason why no other group has really worked with the engine, at least here in the US. I look forward to more interaction with the following here on the forum.. Voice your concerns and comments, let us know what you want! |
Thanks for dropping in as well. For those of us looking for more performance, and contemplating 3.6 swaps, what can you offer? In my case in particular, when giving you back a running 3.2 core?
I would guess the biggest limiting factor to be the heads, no? Patrick |
QUOTE=Jake Raby]Thanks for the welcome...
I look forward to more interaction with the following here on the forum.. Voice your concerns and comments, let us know what you want![/QUOTE] I don't speak for everyone here but someday my 2.5 is sure to pop. When that day comes I will be looking for a larger displacement NA motor that is tuned, balanced and as bulletproof as you can make it. We get lousy 91 gas in Calif so a turbo is less interesting to me (also would never pass smog). I don't need fire breathing performance that is at the edge of destruction. If I can get reliable Carrera S straight line performance in the the Boxster I should still be able to outrun most of the rear-enders in the corners. Boxsters with stock motors regularly run top five at the track out here. A few extra ponies couldn't hurt. :D |
Jack,
Your web site discusses a stage 4 NA setup. Have you done a 2.7 increased to 2.9 yet and if so, what kind of hp did you get? What supporting mods are required to get maximum performance? Exhaust, headers, larger injectors? Sean |
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This engine would certainly require headers. Quote:
The 3.2 engine is best if left stock displacement and only enhancements made with cam/ head work, or at least thats where today's school of thought is on the topic. That might change next week :-) Quote:
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I have found that most any Porsche enthusiast appreciates what I do and thats a solid dual purpose engine thats capable of being effective in AX as well as DE events and can be driven to and from those events. Thats certainly what we are shooting for. Quote:
There is a TREMENDOUS potential with performance with the Boxster engine once the inherent BS design issues are overcome. These engines LOVE critical assembly, the valve job that we do alone is worth 15 HP... Thats just one example, we'll continue to unlock power as we gain experience with the program. |
Jack,
I really appreciate your comments in this thread. Thank you for the real information, something that can be lacking when dealing with Porsche when discussing their engines. Your web site is very interesting and it is shocking to see the shoddy work that Porsche puts into its remanufactured engines. I look forward to seeing your 2.9 results. I hope I don't need it anytime soon, and so does my 401k, but it is nice to have an option. My wife and I were talking about a quality engine rebuild vs engine swap today and she brought up an interesting point. Swapping in a 3.4 may increase the value of the car for resale and have some ROI for the cost, but you will be right back where you started if it goes pop, and some $30,000 in the hole. It's a pretty big risk to take unless you sell the thing after the swap right away. I plan on keeping this car as a toy and ax/de car and this seems like it will be a great option. Thanks again Sean |
Jake, Welcome !
My question is about cost of your engines, especially for the early 2.5's. As you say this is where you have concentrated to-date and feel this is a major market for you. Given these cars low current market value, will the cost of your engine make it a viable alternative, or one which is too rich for many's blood? If you have a MY '97 or '98, how much sense does it make to put a $10k or higher motor into such a car as opposed to just going out and buying another car? Many of the 2.5 owners are 2nd or 3rd owners and have the 2.5 because they are the only cars in their price range. If the car's value drops any further, as it may well do because of high fuel prices, shifting demographics, etc., these cars may be in danger of becoming 'disposable' as opposed to throwing a big bucks repair at it. How will your motor compare on a cost basis with a factory reman? |
You can also go direct to source of the key component of these rebuilt motors. I'd like to see a few builders using these Nickie 986 cases.
http://www.lnengineering.com/boxster.html Anyone know much about the place in the UK that has done inserts for cases as well? Looks like free market is driving some solutions. Raby tends to be high end. I'm looking for Toyota of engine builders - solid quality at reasonable price. Jake is more of a one off specialty engine builder - he does a great job but his prices tend to be out relm of most who get into a sub $18K 2.5 986 Boxster like most of us. I'd like to see a higher volume engine builder take on these motors to drive cost effeciency. |
A very intriguing thread Jack.
I,like many folks will be watching as things progress. Jim |
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From Silver Arrow
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I hope to have results from the first 2.9 sometime in early 09. Quote:
From Lil Bastard Quote:
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As I have stated before, it is not our master plan to rebuild tons and tons of these engines! What we want to do is provide procedures, components, upgrades, specialty tools and specific training to those who would like to work on their own engine. This means that ultimately local shops will be able to repair engines, source parts and tools to do the job without having to buy a complete engine from us. I want to provide enough complete upgraded engines to apply our procedures, but its not smething that we wish to do in a full scale, long term plan. By the end of 2009 we will have a plan in action that will allow shops to be representatives of what we do and one price will buy them the opporunity to sourece parts at wholesale levels, and the same will go for our procedures and we will include training here at our education facility as well as DVDs on the topic. This will allow shops to do the work that they have had to turn down for so many years and possibly offer a lower cost option to the public. I also plan to offer DVDs on these topics to the novice that will illustrate how to do the procedures and step by step how to rebuild the engine. I have an in house instructional video division that will make this a possibility for us and will increase awareness to the novice and make it possible for an engine to be "rebuilt and upgraded" at home. I have extensive experience with DVDs like this for the aircooled engine, and those have been great tools to assist the novice with their project. Porsche never intended for the Owner to maintain or repair the engine/ car and we want to counter their plan. Quote:
I think we will see these cars being used more and more for competition and perhaps that will keep them alive. Quote:
From Grant Quote:
You can look at the cost of their service and see where a huge portion of our costs somes from with the upgraded engines, because its a 4K investment for the Nickies upgrade and JE pistons and EVERY engine we build will get this, because otherwise a repeat of a D chunk failure could occur in short order. Anyone using the LN Engineering services to recondition a block will end up having to charge the same or MORE that we do. More than likely they won't be able to source the rest of the pieces as we have had to literally make main bearings and a ton of smaller pieces because they could not be sourced from Porsche. Quote:
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In the aircooled world EVERY engine I design and build is different and thats made possible by their simplicity and the vast array of components available. This is not the case with the Boxster and 996, so standardization is the key. Quote:
With any engine there is certainly a required amount of labor to reach an acceptable goal. In this case the labor and practices to upgrade the cylinders to Nickies, upgrade the IMS as well as the additional upgrades cost a significant amount of money. These are the things that are required for future issues to be avoided, and those corners can't be cut. If we did a simple "rebuild" of an engine without the upgrades the cost would be 5K less, but the labor would still be the same and I don't believe that clients would find it acceptable to experience the same failure again in less then 5K miles, and thats a possibility without upgrades being applied. Quote:
As I stated several times in the past, the program we have created is totally different than it's aircooled counterpart. We realize the differences in Boxster owners and the owners of earlier cars. We also realize that the amount of Boxsters on the road and the demand for these services will warrant more standadrization and solid solutions for common problems. Due to this, we started from scratch and are ready to meet any demand necessary for stock UPGRADED rebuilt engines, class specific rebuilt engines and larger displacement, dual purpose performance packages. Quote:
There you will see that the prices we post rival that of a stock factory remanufactured engine and certainly don't cost much more to add significant HP and torque increases. The price we have for a stock Nickies upgraded engine is just a few dollars more than the current (recently revised) price for a Porsche reman engine without the Nickies upgrades, etc, etc. As the dollar vs the euro continues to increase prices for the Porsche reman units, our engines will remain at standardized pricing as most all parts we are working with are made in the USA. Quote:
Now, sorry to be so long winded, but al the comments and questions have been great and the deserve detailed responses from me. For those of you who don't follow the aircooled boards... Grant is a prior 914 guy.. In the aircooled workld he has always been a critic of my work and especially what we charge for components and engines. It was ironic when he recently traded his 914/6 race car for a Boxster... I'll close by saying that everything in life has a cost of admission and you will always get exactly what you pay for. The Boxster has engine issues and the cost associated with a true resolution of these issues isn't ever going to be "cheap". Once again, our goal is to make the engine more easily repaired and updated by empowering local shops and enthusiasts to do the work themselves. (why?? Because thats exactly what Porsche didn't want to occur!) |
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My name is rather common in the the UK, especially in the North, around County Durham where my ancestor's Castle still stands today. I visited it in 2006 www.rabycastle.com :-) |
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We are not a walk in type facility, we generally don't see more than two customers a year as we work odd hours doing behind the scenes stuff.. I'd be happy to schedule a tour for you if you'd like to come see us. Wednesday evenings are the best time for this. We'll be testing for the next 3 weeks, so the chances of us having a time for a tour would be slim to none through the end of September... |
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