Boxster intercooler???....
 

Hi,

Anybody mounted an intercooler on their Super or turbocharged Boxster ? If so, where and what kind? Does it require remaping your AIC or ECU. Also if your using a piggy back device, what kind?

Thanx, PK

PK,

Yes, Gary in BR's twin turbo install has an intercooler on the bottom of the motor where the aluminum stress plate originally resided. He has pictures here (or on sixspeed?) that show it pretty well.

The TTP installation puts the IC in the rear trunk, here's a pic:
http://www.t-t-p.de/pics/porsche_kits/engine_986_2.5.700x462.jpg

Eric

Huh, Thats interesting, I thought about the trunk but couldn’t figure where any meaningful amount off fresh air would come from. Also, am I only seeing one pipe off that IC? ??

I’ll have to try to fin Gary’s pic.

Thanx, PK

mmmm, 390hp 3.2L twin tuuuuurbo...

*drooool*

Has anyone done a TTP turbo kit? Curious what the reliability is like.

-David

Do you mean TPC?

PK

No, I'm pretty sure he meant TTP. TPC is another company that makes a S/C for the boxster. Turbowerx offers a twin turbo setup that mounts the intercooler underneath the car as shown in the pic. Seems to me it would work alot better than in the trunk. I don't see how TTP can reliably crank out 390 hp out of the 3.2L unless they are lowering the compression and going to forged internals...and I don't think they are.

Here are a few pictures of my intercooler install.

Oops, forgot to point out that Gary's install is an air-air intercooler and the TTP is an air-water system, so no air goes through the trunk, just water lines.

The TTP 3.4 twin turbo does replace internals, but I don't think the 3.2 does...

http://www.t-t-p.de/english/986.php

Hi Gary, Glad you showed up :)

-Is there a scoop of some sort that scoops air through that intercooler? If not, how does it have a cooling effect so close to the warm trans.

-I saw one of those pumps somewhere but not clear on what it does?

-Does the length of those tubes to the intercooler rob you of some charge flow? Or is that just “tuned in” or compensated for systemically.

Thanks,

PK

It seems like water/air would is a nice solution, but I don’t get what TTP has going on in what would be the trunk. It appears to be the heat exchanger…but with only one tube??

Ideas?

Thanx PK

Ya, I have a TCP, and If he was referring to one, I could talk to it. I Googled “TTP turbo”, it’s apparently the name of some ghastly rap-something group. Google’s first page was dedicated to them, saw enough…

Don’t quite get how the air goes through the fins the Turbowerx set up.

Thanks, PK

That's a lot of money
 

15,500 Euro seems like a lot of money. Seems like you could spend you money more effectively either doing other things.

Par-tay! :)

Air-water ICs are good for packaging but have some limitations for a street/road race engine. Each heat exchanger in a system is at best about 75% efficient (i.e., it can remove about 75% of the temperature difference between the internal flow and the external ambient temp). For example, if the outside temperature is 80f flowing across the intercooler, and the charge inside the IC comes in at 180f, a 75% efficiency would produce a temp drop of (180-80)*75 = 75 degrees, so outlet temp would be 180-75 = 105f.

Now when you stack heat exchangers, as you must in a air-water system (there's an air-water exchanger in the front of the car to cool the water, then a water-air exchanger on the engine to cool the compressed air) the efficiencies multiply, so 0.75*0.75 = 56% system efficiency. (And this is a contrived "best case" example, 75% is rarely attainable in the real world.)

On the other hand, an air-water exchanger can be used with a cool-tank to get the water well below ambient temp (just toss a block of dry ice in the tank) and for short duration events like drag racing this can be a very significant advantage. (You can do the same sort of thing with an air-air cooler by spraying nitrous across it instead of just leaving it out in the air; the expansion of the nitrous from liquid phase to gaseous phase nets a huge temperature drop.)

The pump in Gary's car is the oil scavenger for the turbos. Turbochargers drain their cooling/lubricating oil out the bottom using gravity, there's no pump system inherent in the turbo to get rid of it. On most installs, the turbo is well above the oil pan, so the drain hose just drops back into the pan r the side of the block or whatever, but when packaging forces the turbo down low, you must suck the oil out of the turbo and pump it back into the engine. Here you see the turbo drain lines emptying into a little aluminum plemum, and the pump then evacuates the plenum back into the engine.

Eric

-Is there a scoop of some sort that scoops air through that intercooler? If not, how does it have a cooling effect so close to the warm trans.


There are no scoops on the intercooler, I agree it makes sense to put scoops on it but Turbowerks did significant testing and did not see as need for the scoops.




-I saw one of those pumps somewhere but not clear on what it does?



The pump is the for the oil as Eric mentions. (thanks eric you explained it allot better than I could have.)



-Does the length of those tubes to the intercooler rob you of some charge flow? Or is that just “tuned in” or compensated for systemically.


I am not 100% sure but I do know the system is producing 6lb of boost at the throttle body. So I would assume that if there is a pressure loss the turbos are producing enough to ensure the boost at the engine is correct.


Thanks,

Thanks for the reply Eric,

Your W/A IC’s synopsis backs up what I’ve heard elseware. I get it, you’ve 2 “losy” heat exchangers instead of one. Couldn’t you though, just double up the size of the front water exchanger space permitting ? Also, Is the wet heat exchanger just a radiator?

As to the cool-tank set up, isn’t really practical for my purposes.
Thanks for clearing up the pump mystery, who da thunk .

So what do you think about the positioning of Gary’s IC?. Obviously works for his setup, but I heard of something called “throttle volume” meaning (I guess) the volume of air in between the SC and the throttle body. Apparently to much and you get something akin to turbo lag. I was told that a total of 4 feet of tubing (to the IC and back) “probably“ wouldn’t be noticeable…your thoughts?

Last but not least, any clearing houses that you know of for calculating a workable system be it W/C or A/A. I have this goal of milking another 25 hp out of this thing and I’m on the cheap at the moment. Right now can only semi educated guesses as to how components I cob together might behave.

Thanks again, PK

P.S. Is water injection a valid option (no clue about it)

--------------------------------------------

Hello Gary,

I realize yours is quite a different animal than mine and I’m sure it’s designed with holistic approach, nothing extraneous. But yours is the only model I have to go by with respect to the IC.

Do you know the approximate size of you IC? Inlet and outlet diameters (or hose diameter would be good enough

Thanks a ton, PK

P,S. I asume your setup has a pigigy back AIC of some sort, do you know what it is?

I'll get under there and measure the inlet and outlet today. And the 3 dimensions of the IC

The Turbowerx web address is http://www.turbowerx.com/ There he has pictures of intercoolers and pipes.

My ECU has been reprogrammed. No add on software or piggy back. I am actully expecting a new ecu any day now. (need a little more power)

If your looking for more power JAAY was investigating adding methonal injection to his supercharger setup. This is the company he referred me too: http://www.snowperformance.net/

Also there is the idea of spraying the intercooler with nitrous. From my understanding spraying the intercooler with nitrous lowers the intake temperature even more. I am afraid of the research on the nitrous spray of the IC because if it sounds promising then I will figure a way of mounting a spray onto my IC.

A quick google search
http://www.fastwrx.com/nterinchil.html
http://www.watson************************************************************************************************/servlet/Categories?category=NOS%3ATurbos%2FSuperchargers%3 AIntercooler+Spray+Bar+Kit


I hope any or some of this helps, and I will post the measurements sometime today.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Gary,

Thanks, no need to be super precise, ballpark is fine. The more I learn about IC’s the more complicated it gets, should be a no-brainer. I do think you do indeed need more power with a new ecu. :)

I’ve thought a bit about methanol/water injection & nitrous (great coolant), but I think I’m more inclined towards solutions that are seamless and permanent. Mixing up my own 93-95 oct. brew out of pump and race fuel is enough for me I think.

Thanks again, PK

Yes, increasing the transit time in the cooler can improve its efficiency somewhat, but there are ceilings on the improvement, so I'm guessing you'd need a really huge water-air one to get it significantly cooler...

You know, I used to think it was a problem, always rationalizing that increased volume between the turbo and the throttle was detrimental to throttle response, but in practice it doesn't seem to be a problem. My turbo cars have always had pretty small volumes, due to the IC being close to the turbo and intake, but I've ridden in cars with long pipes and they are plenty snappy, even right off the line as they're building boost...

Try the calculator I wrote years ago for this stuff. The list of maps it supports is way out of date, but the numbers are good.
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

It's certainly a valid option (and probably a good one given our high compression motors), but it's another system you have to design, fab, plumb and maintain. The hardest part is finding decent injectors if you want fine (i.e., proportional) control of the water injection, but a simple system can be quite effective using just a fixed nozzle. One of the big problems with water injection that most people don't acknowledge is internal corrosion of the engine; a "typical" WI system can add a lot of water to the oil, which can cause problems and there's not much discussion of this anywhere that I've ever seen, but it's something you need to keep in mind.

Here are my WI notes, more theoretical than practical, but maybe useful...

http://www.not2fast.com/thermo/water_injection/

Eric

Oops, forgot to answer one question:

One of the water-air heat exchangers (the one on the front of the car) is indeed just a radiator. You could repurpose the center radiator on an S (or install one on a base) to use as the "condenser" on a W-A system... (The other water-air exchanger, the one back in the intake tract, is usually one specifically designed for that purpose, look for Spearco intercoolers, they have good pictures and some docs (I think they got bought by somebody, I had them fabricate a big IC for one of my quattros a few years ago, the link I have is dead now).

Eric

-----------------------------------
Hey Gary,

I got the dope on that one and it has a term that evades me. But basically your compressing all the air from the TT to the throttle body. The more volume in tubes, IC, etc the longer it takes to compress and get the pressure where you want it. in short, more lag. Weather its noticeable or not, I guess it depends.

(Think of blowing a bike tire up to 40 psi compared to blowing up a car tire to the same 40 psi, car tire more volume, more time to get there.)

Regards, PK

Thanks,

I wonder if a suitabley sized exchanger could fit in the "S" radiator space.

Regards, Pk

Hi Guys, Just to make up to date on my project. I own a Boxster S 2000 with 32000 miles on it. Last year I added Supercharger, catback, headers, ecu reflash by IA, Bigger injectors, air intake, lowered suspension, Put aerokit and full carbon trunk lid after spoiler and brake light, hard top, porsche seats with carbon shell, Kinesis wheels, Short shifter, carbon console,
This winter I am addind intercooler in trunk with fan onto lid, nitro sprayed on intercooler and progressive water methanol injection just prior to trottle body to refresh engine some more to higher psi. So,With these upgrades I will put smaller pulley on supercharger to get almost 7 psi at trottle body.

I hope I will dyno it around 375 whp. I do street and quarter mile drag with it in a team with my sons. They have a S2000 and a STI. Huge feeling.
Add comments or recommendations please.

I would like to send you pictures, but I need somebody of you to tell me how to insert in posts. I am not a pro with computer use.

I appreciate you guys with all infos contained in forums
Jacques

One more thing, for those that are afraid to remove soft top, only 3 grouped bolts on each side and lift up. 10 minutes. Just have to pop off the two short red wires
Have a good time

Drag racing a Boxster. Now I've heard everything, haha:)

Start a thread about your Boxster and post pics, dyno, and later...drag slips! Love to see how it fares.

-David

well i don't have enough knowledge to get technical on this topic...but how do u think a front mount intercooler would work on a turbo boxster? just thought it'd look great behind a nice front bumper like fiberwerks' mulsanne.

I don't think it would work very well, because volume between the turbo and throttle body would be huge, plus you have flow considerations with such long pipes. It would cause terrible lag when you went to pump it up to pressure...

There is always this radiator kit sold by EAGLE DAY. It goes in the center behind the front bumper also as an add-on.
http://eagleday.stores.yahoo.net/bope.html
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y15...78_6514102.jpg
:cheers:
This radiator kit is stock for the GT3R race car and will bolt directly to the street car. Kit includes radiator, hoses, brackets, rubber grommets, air duct to match your bumper (stock, aero, or GT3R) and all necessary hardware. Professional installation recommended.

The water-cooled modern Porsches have the radiator split into two sections, one in front of each front wheel. On certain models that require additional cooling, a third radiator is located in the center of the front bumper. In particular, a 986 Boxster equipped with the Tiptronic automatic transmission, a 986 Boxster S, and a 996 911, have center radiators. However, the 986 Boxster with manual transmission and 987 Boxster and Boxster S do not have a center radiator. But the space for the center radiator is available behind the bumper, and the mounting points are there, too.

Just put the intercooler where it belongs on a Boxster....

Underneath it!!


In the center goes the extra driving lights!! :cheers:

Don't get me wrong Gary, I like you car, looks cool and all, but not a fan of the center fog lights you added. The tops of them are cut off too. Nice ride though. :cheers:

I did not take anything personal in what was said I was trying to be funny.

I think a front mount radiator looks great on our cars. If I ever do a larger engine I will go with a front mount radiator.

Yes the lights are cut off a little on the top but was tough to find small enough quality lights that fit in the area.

The good thing about the lights is unless you are looking for them you can not even see them when they are off.

Really, the other post was my attempt to be funny...I guess my dry humor does not relate of the web. :cheers:

Hey Efhl,

I’ve been posting here there and over there regarding upping the hp on my TPC, Eaton m63, 4.5 P.S.I. set up on my 99 2.5L Box.. As I recall you always had pretty solid horse sense, knowledge & experience …So I’m picking on you

Somewhere I think it was you who said the bottom end of a 2.fL could handle 350 hp or more. It’s my understanding (anecdotally) that most people who overboost these things that blow their motors do so as a result of insufficient cooling at the top end…detonation. (My current analogue AIC cools by running rich and has no timing. Replacement will be programmable for both fuel and timing. I think it will also sport a 750cc/min 7th injector instead of the current 500cc/min (TCP’s current upgrade))

I’ve been doing tons of homework and figure with WI, progressive or better, 270cc/min nozzle, 100/150 psi pump, 20-30% meth., injected right by the opening of “spider” manifold would do it for the cooling (no?)

Pulleying down from 2.6 dia. to 2.5 would put me at about 288 hp (from 260 approx). with the super operating in it safe rpm, zone (14k rpm’s). A 2.4 pulley would put me at about 300hp. But my super would be at 15.3k rpm’s (in a 14k-16k- iffy zone).

Only issue I can see is diminishing returns, the super taking more hp than it can contribute at high revs.

What do you think about my plan?

Regards, PK

P.S. I picked up a EGT (exhaust gas temp) guage an sensord and a wideband

Yes, that would be great for an air-water system, add a pump, some lines, a tank and the air-water exchanger could live back in the rear trunk.

Eric

I don't think the center radiator is needed. We drove across the Bonneville Salt Flats in September, temps in the 90s and speed was somewhat elevated for quite a while (I did 125+ for at least five miles while my wife was napping, gradually up and down so as not to cause a ruckus). The temp never budged off normal, this is with the standard 2.5 radiators on my 3.4...

Eric

pk2 wrote:
Somewhere I think it was you who said the bottom end of a 2.fL could handle 350 hp or more. It’s my understanding (anecdotally) that most people who overboost these things that blow their motors do so as a result of insufficient cooling at the top end…detonation.

Hi Peter,

My ~350 number is only a guess, based on experience with Audi and VW bottom ends (80-100 HP per hole, before rods bend), but none with Porsche's. I'm assuming that Porsche builds solid cranks and rods like their friends across town.

I would concur, most broken forced induction motors happen due to detonation, which might cascade into pre-ignition or maybe just break stuff directly.

I’ve been doing tons of homework and figure with WI, progressive or better, 270cc/min nozzle, 100/150 psi pump, 20-30% meth., injected right by the opening of “spider” manifold would do it for the cooling (no?)

Yes, water/methanol injection will do a good job of cooling, with or without an additional intercooler. This alone can net some significant HP (go play with my turbo calculator for any generic engine and just add a bit of water injection to see how density increases -> HP increases).
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

(Also read the caveats on the math I use to model the water injection so you don't get too optimistic:
http://www.not2fast.com/thermo/water_injection/opt_mass.shtml)

Pulleying down from 2.6 dia. to 2.5 would put me at about 288 hp (from 260 approx). with the super operating in it safe rpm, zone (14k rpm’s). A 2.4 pulley would put me at about 300hp. But my super would be at 15.3k rpm’s (in a 14k-16k- iffy zone).

Only issue I can see is diminishing returns, the super taking more hp than it can contribute at high revs.

You need to worry about loss of efficiency with higher revs, too. Here's a graph of the older, much less efficent M62 (the Eaton guys were going to send me newer maps, but I never followed through with them, oops) showing temperature change as a function of charger speed, and you can see it is not linear, but increasing faster than the speed does. At some point, the compressor efficiency is such that spinning it faster merely makes the charge hotter and nothing else, so at that point you are way beyond diminishing returns.

http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/M62deltaT.gif


P.S. I picked up a EGT (exhaust gas temp) guage an sensord and a wideband


More data is always good, do you have a way to datalog the EGT and lambda along with some other engine parameters (RPM, throttle position and that sort of thing)? Analyzing logs is so much easier than trying to look at gauges while you're driving (but then, if you make a video of all the gauges, you can do a fair amount of "log analysis" that way).

Eric

PK,
What are your plans for mounting the gauges and what brand did you go with?

I am in the process of narrowing my gauge options so I started a gauge thread at
http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=133322#post133322

Gary

Eric,

I am really glad to hear that!! Even though it may not appear this way But I am trying to keep my ar as simple as possible.

What do you think the reason Porsche added the 3rd radiator on other models?

Gary,

Probably for track use? Blasting across the desert at part throttle with lots of air going through the radiators probably isn't too stressful for the cooling system. Go to a driving event at Sebring or Willow Springs on a hot day and you probably need that third radiator and then some...

Eric

Please send m a link or pics of this trunk and intercooler setup. i would also like to find out who did the nitro and metonal injection to the car for you. I have the first IA SC kit on my 2000 S and since have become a boost junkie.

Also how long have you had the SC system? Any new and strange oil leaks?

Gary,

You won believe this story and time will tell…I’m out to grab another 20-30hp and wind with Phd in tuning components. As to mounting, I’m a product designer (me make pretty), I’ll come up with something. The short answer is everything can show up on my laptop is I want, or on gauges if I want.

Goal is to avoid it looking like a Pacchinco machine. If its gauges, the center shelves go b-bye. Ergonomically, up the “A” pillar is the best for a quick glance. Also a cop magnetthough. But I’m not sure I want the glaring al the time. Once it’s set, unless something goes bump…

For My O2 setup I’m relying on a JAW. That’s a brainchild (among others) of a tuning wiz named Alan Tu in Canada. He’s engineered a DYI W/B getup running off a standard Bosch LSU W/B O2 sensor and output to a back-lit digital readout (I think it will drive a traditional gauge to). Plugs into your laptop and (O.S.) software & lets you do more than you want. It also will log 2 additional, standard 5v inputsIn addition, compute maps for two, 0- 5v outputs from the A/F data. (5v is pretty much what all the ECU stuff runs at).

He sells them complete with software in 2 forms, Bag o parts with directions or assembled, $70 & $90 respectively. Throw in the $60 Bosch LSU W/B O2 sensor (Amazon) and your looking at $130-$150 and some finger grease…an ‘elluva platform.

Want more? It gets better:..

My EGT (exhaust gas temp) in it’s current form is a used Alcor. It’s a 2 sensor variety. I plan on putting one sensor on each header. Who’s Alchor? They’ve been building these things since WWII…for airplanes, Normal, supers, & turbos, Turns out the vast majority of EGT setups (planes, trains, & autos) use the same method. At their core is a Type “K” probe, all are the same physically, functionally in there output. Difference is the durability. The Alcor is designed for aircraft, one elluva lot more durable (surprise). Ebay; bad add, misspelling; $27

To the “k” type EGT sensors I can also add a $35 “amplifier” and feed the amped probe data into the JAW for readout on the laptop (along with the AFR and whatever else I plug into it) & log the data.


So for $217 I get EGT, W/B o2, software for readouts, logging & ,manipulation plus 2 gauges, one digital and on analogue. In another window I will have my SS R4 software running to tune my AIC, timing & WI. Oh yea.. another $50 for a smaller SC pulley to get the SC spinning..

Sleepy yet?

Regards, PK

P.S. JAW stands for “Just Another Wideband”

Go here for JAW http://14point7.com/

Thanks for exhaustive reply. I just wrote Gary quite the missive (post here) on my O2/egt/boost etc plans. Give it a read if you can stay awake through it. Like to respond to your notes but I gotta sleep.I'll Give it the twice over it deserves ASAP.

Thanks much

PK