Boxster intercooler???....

[pk2]

Originally Posted by efahl

I don't think it would work very well, because volume between the turbo and throttle body ...

Hey Efhl,

I’ve been posting here there and over there regarding upping the hp on my TPC, Eaton m63, 4.5 P.S.I. set up on my 99 2.5L Box.. As I recall you always had pretty solid horse sense, knowledge & experience …So I’m picking on you

Somewhere I think it was you who said the bottom end of a 2.fL could handle 350 hp or more. It’s my understanding (anecdotally) that most people who overboost these things that blow their motors do so as a result of insufficient cooling at the top end…detonation. (My current analogue AIC cools by running rich and has no timing. Replacement will be programmable for both fuel and timing. I think it will also sport a 750cc/min 7th injector instead of the current 500cc/min (TCP’s current upgrade))

I’ve been doing tons of homework and figure with WI, progressive or better, 270cc/min nozzle, 100/150 psi pump, 20-30% meth., injected right by the opening of “spider” manifold would do it for the cooling (no?)

Pulleying down from 2.6 dia. to 2.5 would put me at about 288 hp (from 260 approx). with the super operating in it safe rpm, zone (14k rpm’s). A 2.4 pulley would put me at about 300hp. But my super would be at 15.3k rpm’s (in a 14k-16k- iffy zone).

Only issue I can see is diminishing returns, the super taking more hp than it can contribute at high revs.

What do you think about my plan?

Regards, PK

P.S. I picked up a EGT (exhaust gas temp) guage an sensord and a wideband

[efahl]

pk2 wrote:
Somewhere I think it was you who said the bottom end of a 2.fL could handle 350 hp or more. It’s my understanding (anecdotally) that most people who overboost these things that blow their motors do so as a result of insufficient cooling at the top end…detonation.

Hi Peter,

My ~350 number is only a guess, based on experience with Audi and VW bottom ends (80-100 HP per hole, before rods bend), but none with Porsche's. I'm assuming that Porsche builds solid cranks and rods like their friends across town.

I would concur, most broken forced induction motors happen due to detonation, which might cascade into pre-ignition or maybe just break stuff directly.

I’ve been doing tons of homework and figure with WI, progressive or better, 270cc/min nozzle, 100/150 psi pump, 20-30% meth., injected right by the opening of “spider” manifold would do it for the cooling (no?)

Yes, water/methanol injection will do a good job of cooling, with or without an additional intercooler. This alone can net some significant HP (go play with my turbo calculator for any generic engine and just add a bit of water injection to see how density increases -> HP increases).
http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml

(Also read the caveats on the math I use to model the water injection so you don't get too optimistic:
http://www.not2fast.com/thermo/water_injection/opt_mass.shtml)

Pulleying down from 2.6 dia. to 2.5 would put me at about 288 hp (from 260 approx). with the super operating in it safe rpm, zone (14k rpm’s). A 2.4 pulley would put me at about 300hp. But my super would be at 15.3k rpm’s (in a 14k-16k- iffy zone).

Only issue I can see is diminishing returns, the super taking more hp than it can contribute at high revs.

You need to worry about loss of efficiency with higher revs, too. Here's a graph of the older, much less efficent M62 (the Eaton guys were going to send me newer maps, but I never followed through with them, oops) showing temperature change as a function of charger speed, and you can see it is not linear, but increasing faster than the speed does. At some point, the compressor efficiency is such that spinning it faster merely makes the charge hotter and nothing else, so at that point you are way beyond diminishing returns.




P.S. I picked up a EGT (exhaust gas temp) guage an sensord and a wideband


More data is always good, do you have a way to datalog the EGT and lambda along with some other engine parameters (RPM, throttle position and that sort of thing)? Analyzing logs is so much easier than trying to look at gauges while you're driving (but then, if you make a video of all the gauges, you can do a fair amount of "log analysis" that way).

Eric

[pk2]

Originally Posted by efahl

More data is always good, do you have a way to datalog the EGT and lambda along with some other engine parameters (RPM, throttle position and that sort of thing)? Analyzing logs is so much easier than trying to look at gauges while you're driving (but then, if you make a video of all the gauges, you can do a fair amount of "log analysis" that way).

Eric

Thanks for exhaustive reply. I just wrote Gary quite the missive (post here) on my O2/egt/boost etc plans. Give it a read if you can stay awake through it. Like to respond to your notes but I gotta sleep.I'll Give it the twice over it deserves ASAP.

Thanks much

PK

[Gary in BR]

PK,

I'm with you on the PHD, I may only be at masters level.

I still have not decided which way I am going to go the options are much larger than I expected.

I do know that the way we keep modifying these engines we are going to need something to ensure things stay at a safe level.

[pk2]

Originally Posted by Gary in BR

PK,

I'm with you on the PHD, I may only be at masters level.

I still have not decided which way I am going to go the options are much larger than I expected.

I do know that the way we keep modifying these engines we are going to need something to ensure things stay at a safe level.

Love to hear about these "options" that you got up your sleeve. As for safety, I think it’s really a question of do diligence. In short , keep the top end. From burning up. I have yet to hear of any bottom end catostrophic failure due to forced induction. That’s why I’m going to be monitoring everything I can.

Regards, PK

[Gary in BR]

Originally Posted by pk2

Love to hear about these "options" that you got up your sleeve. As for safety, I think it’s really a question of do diligence. In short , keep the top end. From burning up. I have yet to hear of any bottom end catostrophic failure due to forced induction. That’s why I’m going to be monitoring everything I can.

Regards, PK

The options I was reffering to are the options on gauges and dataloggers.

As of today I am going to go with VDO boost and Oil pressure and Turbowerx on board diagnostic tool for my a/f ratio.

As far as future options on the car....
I have not decided whats next.

[pk2]

Originally Posted by Gary in BR

The options I was reffering to are the options on gauges and dataloggers.

As of today I am going to go with VDO boost and Oil pressure and Turbowerx on board diagnostic tool for my a/f ratio.

As far as future options on the car....
I have not decided whats next.

Hey Gary,

Nice that Turbowerks provides you with A/F stuff, sounds like a very well sorted out and integrated system. Can’t go wrong with VDO either.

“As far as future options on the car....” That’s the spirit…I’ll be hot on you heals..

Regards, PK

[Gary in BR]

Originally Posted by pk2

PK

P.S. I picked up a EGT (exhaust gas temp) guage an sensord and a wideband

PK,
What are your plans for mounting the gauges and what brand did you go with?

I am in the process of narrowing my gauge options so I started a gauge thread at
http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=133322#post133322

Gary

[pk2]

Originally Posted by Gary in BR

PK,
What are your plans for mounting the gauges and what brand did you go with?

I am in the process of narrowing my gauge options so I started a gauge thread at
http://986forum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=133322#post133322

Gary

Gary,

You won believe this story and time will tell…I’m out to grab another 20-30hp and wind with Phd in tuning components. As to mounting, I’m a product designer (me make pretty), I’ll come up with something. The short answer is everything can show up on my laptop is I want, or on gauges if I want.

Goal is to avoid it looking like a Pacchinco machine. If its gauges, the center shelves go b-bye. Ergonomically, up the “A” pillar is the best for a quick glance. Also a cop magnetthough. But I’m not sure I want the glaring al the time. Once it’s set, unless something goes bump…

For My O2 setup I’m relying on a JAW. That’s a brainchild (among others) of a tuning wiz named Alan Tu in Canada. He’s engineered a DYI W/B getup running off a standard Bosch LSU W/B O2 sensor and output to a back-lit digital readout (I think it will drive a traditional gauge to). Plugs into your laptop and (O.S.) software & lets you do more than you want. It also will log 2 additional, standard 5v inputsIn addition, compute maps for two, 0- 5v outputs from the A/F data. (5v is pretty much what all the ECU stuff runs at).

He sells them complete with software in 2 forms, Bag o parts with directions or assembled, $70 & $90 respectively. Throw in the $60 Bosch LSU W/B O2 sensor (Amazon) and your looking at $130-$150 and some finger grease…an ‘elluva platform.

Want more? It gets better:..

My EGT (exhaust gas temp) in it’s current form is a used Alcor. It’s a 2 sensor variety. I plan on putting one sensor on each header. Who’s Alchor? They’ve been building these things since WWII…for airplanes, Normal, supers, & turbos, Turns out the vast majority of EGT setups (planes, trains, & autos) use the same method. At their core is a Type “K” probe, all are the same physically, functionally in there output. Difference is the durability. The Alcor is designed for aircraft, one elluva lot more durable (surprise). Ebay; bad add, misspelling; $27

To the “k” type EGT sensors I can also add a $35 “amplifier” and feed the amped probe data into the JAW for readout on the laptop (along with the AFR and whatever else I plug into it) & log the data.


So for $217 I get EGT, W/B o2, software for readouts, logging & ,manipulation plus 2 gauges, one digital and on analogue. In another window I will have my SS R4 software running to tune my AIC, timing & WI. Oh yea.. another $50 for a smaller SC pulley to get the SC spinning..

Sleepy yet?

Regards, PK

P.S. JAW stands for “Just Another Wideband”

Go here for JAW http://14point7.com/